doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Charles Daly Diamond Quality "LINDNER?"

After a couple of calls to my Cali Buddy I went out on a limb and picked up this gun from a local individual. He is fairly confident this is probably a Lindner. The only thing I can add that the pictures might not show is the number "425" above the SAXONY just forward of the barrel flats. Only the serial number 29x on both the water tables and barrel flats, no other proof marks.

12ga.
30"
7 2/3#
14" lop

Nice Gun I don't remember seeing "SAXONY" on a "DALY" marked gun before. Also the "SAXONY" Marked guns I have seen have crossed pistols and a candle looking thing instead of a crown, Very interesting.

Ken will let us know, is there a Serial No. on the Tang?

Thanks Mike.

Yes, the trigger tang has the serial number 29x.

Your third pic looks like the marks on the last pic I posted?

Wonderful H.A.Lindner find and an astute buy.
Congrats !!!!
Best,
John

What a beauty. Color me jealous! Just a fantastic gun.

Alex

That is a very strong limb your standing on.

Beautiful gun.

Pictured is one of John Mann's Lindners. It is a 3xx gun. I would bet it was engraved by the same guy that did yours. Both beauties:

Rover looks familiar.......



best regards,
JBP

I hope Ken Georgi checks in on this. It has all the right stuff, but the SAXONY s a little puzzling. But this is a early gun, and political divisions within Germany were constantly changing. I am confident that this is a Lindner, and a beauty.

EXCELLENT BUY, MARK.

Mark,

That is a beautiful Daly diamond quality model 250!

To answer your question, yes, your gun is a Heinrich Lindner made Daly. The crown over crossed pistols mark just ahead of the barrel flats is one of the marks Lindner used during his 40+ years of gunmaking. In addition, the serial number of your Daly puts it in the range associated with Lindner Dalys.

As MP noted, your gun is also the first Daly I have seen or had reported in the the database with both the crown over crossed pistol mark and the SAXONY stamp. Until today I had only seen the SAXONY stamp on Lindner guns sourced to William Schaefer & Son bearing the "lamp" over crossed pistols shown in MP's photo above. So yet another twist in the Daly story! I wish I understood why the SAXONY stamp shows up on this gun.

At the time of its production (just prior to 1892), your gun, the model 250, was the finest Daly SxS offered by SD&G. It retailed for $275. I should emphasize the phrase "at the time of its production". While gold encrusted "regent diamond quality" guns (model 500) and other more heavily emblished gun were offered later, at the the time this gun was produced, it was the finest SD&G offered.

I really like the looks of Dalys produced during this period. The only really significant technical "advancement" on later Lindner diamond quality guns is the replacement of the dollshead with what SD&G advertised as the "Monte Carlo crossbolt." I guess you might include fluid steel barrels in the technical advancement category, but that is debatable :-).

Congrats on your new gun Mark. It is really a beauty.

Ken

Mark,

I failed to note in the post above that there are other technical and stylistic links that identify your gun as a Lindner-made gun (e.g., the second serial number ahead of the barrel flats, likely actioner initials within the bottom of the action, etc.). Thats said, it has the Lindner crossed pistols so that is the smoking gun. Ditto for the serial number of your Daly.

To follow-up on C Man's post on why the SAXONY mark shows up on this gun, as opposed to the PRUSSIA or THURINGIA mark which have been noted on other guns, I have some ideas but really nothing more than that at this point.

Ken

Without your help c-man I might have passed on this used-citori-priced gun. You never know when you'll run into a deal but I was due.

JB, that hammer-gun is sweet!

Ken and Michael, great info, thanks. I needed some reassuring.

One more ? What color was the original damascus?

Ken: Did you notice the 8 gauge Charles Daly Diamond Quality gun SN 2179 sold yesterday by Greg Martin Auctions. (Lot number 1616) It mentioned crossed pistols with a crown. Was that a Linder Daly? I bid on it but with the shortened barrels it went higher that I was willing to go.

Best Regards, George Lander

George,
I emailed you about a shotgun that I am interested in on the 11th, Did you get the email, or would you rather that I called you? Thanks, Ross

Im glad you got that beautiful gun. Here is my Lindner Daly #3551. It looks similar to yours. It was an ejector gun but somebody converted it to extractor.
Ross

Black & White

Ahh darn, Mark! Now you went and ruined it for me. My only consolation for why I don't have one of these beautiful treasures is that they cost too much and you undoubtedly spent a small fortune on it.

A caution to those owning Lindners with this type "Herringbone" Damascus; a friend had a set of barrels ruined when they were reblacked by an expert. It would appear there are tiny voids where the "V's" interesect. His barrels came back with literally thousands of pits inside and out. Good shooting.

C.

My thought exactly Chuck. If you spent the equivalent of a "used Citori priced gun", you did EXCEPTIONAllY well. I would wager you could buy 5 - 10 used Citoris for that this gun would bring.

Congrats on your gun.

Ken

This is a good point. Re-etching Damascus requires a real expert, and is not for the faiint of heart.

Dr Gaddy referred to the Linder 'Herringbone' pattern as "Manufacture Extra." Does anyone know the origin of that label?

Maybe we could hear from someone who has actually had a set of etched Lindner barrels redone. I suspect that Doug Mann's etched barrels may be in original finish, but, if not, it would be nice to hear from him.

"It is necessary to look into the history of the area that is now Germany to understand some of the marking on guns of the period between 1850 and 1924. I have chosen these dates for much happened to confuse us as to when and where a gun was made.
Imprints such as Prussia, Thuringia and Saxony on the water tables and barrel flats on many guns indicate that they were destined for the United States as their final destination. The U.S.Trade Laws prior to 1891 had no requirement that a country of origin be marked on product or merchandise. The Law was amended in 1891 to say that the name of the country of origin be imprinted. We therefore see Thuringia, Italy, Nippon and the like on guns of the period and up to 1921. This Trade Law was again amended in 1921 to read that the imprint must state , Made in Country of Origin. We see, then, Made in England, Made in Italy, etc.
After the downfall of Napoleon I, in 1815, European heads of state met in Vienna, Austria to reform and reorganize Europe. Parts of the Duchy of Saxony, which had previously aligned itself with the defeated French Emperor, were given to Prussia. The area also included Thiringia and the town of Suhl.The Prussian government administered the province until 1918 when the former Duchy became the Free State of Saxony. Thurginia became the Free State of Thuringia in 1920 as part of Germany. The stamping of any of these was totally to do with what year, month or day the gun was finished. It was all political, as one can see."
I lifted the above from the Winter 2005 Double Gun Journal. Hope it helps in understanding the gun's markings.
Best,
John

Absolutely Gorgeous, Congratulations. WIsh I could find treasures like that!

"Without your help c-man I might have passed on this used-citori-priced gun"

Damn,I was also enjoying this too until you threw that part in!
Seriously nice score,always feels good to buy them way below market.May we ask auction?want ad?tip from obit page (don't laugh I have often wondered if that might work)
BTW c-man feel free to let me know of any other you find like that!

DaveK:

I did not find this gun Mark found it and called me to ask some questions and get my opinion of the deal. If I had found it, I would own it.



I have a Lindner-made C Daly 20 gauge Damascus gun. The 28-1/8" barrels were redone by Pete Mazur, who gave them a nice, original looking grey finish. This gun is not herringbone Damascus, but is the fine fingerprint style, marked "Charles Daly Fine Damascus Barrels". It has the HAL over crossed pistols stamp and is marked "Prussia" This is a grade 165 ejector gun with intercepting sears.

John,

Thank you for posting that. It extends well beyond this topic and is very useful information.

Pete

Revdocdrew,

The earliest SD&G catalogs I own list several types of damascus available on Daly guns. These include what SD&G referred to as "Clunny" damascus, "Bernard or Turkish first quality damascus", and "Chine" damascus. I've never been able to associate which one of these might correspond to the "Herringbone" pattern often seen on Prussian Dalys (usually diamond quality guns).

John,

The possible date of production of Mark's gun falls into a pretty narrow range. The gun does not bear proof marks (which marks it as a pre-1892 gun), yet it also (I'm willing to bet) does NOT have the Anson & Deeley brevete mark and use number stamped on the center of the breech which means it made made after the A&D patent had expired. The gun also shows the "early" Lindner crossed pistols under crown mark which was revised in response to the newly required government proof marks. And of course the guns bears the "country of origin" mark required beginning in 1891.

I confess to not having firm enough grasp of German history to know if it reasonable that the timeline for marking the gun SAXONY instead of PRUSSIA would correspond with some change on "ownership" of the land in and around Suhl. Or perhaps Lindner (SD&G) thought SAXONY looked nicer than PRUSSIA and changed it.

George,

I remember taking a quick look at the big 8. If it bore crossed pistols stamp with a crown or HAL over them, it was a Lindner gun. I know of one man who was interested in the gun. I have not heard if he as successful.

Ken

Ken:
I have thought about this dating problem for years. With no records available from Lindner's production, we are left to use the tools we have to come as close as we can. We are on the same page here.
If we assume that a gun was not given a serial number until it was finished and passed Lindner's inspection, it is easy to see that the action could have been built a little earlier than its number might indicate.
Using all the tools available, it seems to me that the gun was finished and shipped in 1891. But could very easily been built earlier. Say three or four years earlier.
Best,
John

Do we know the hammer price on the 8 bore Diamond quail gun? The website is not very friendly about giving out prices.

Reb: I've been helping the Charlton Hall people & haven't diligently been checking my e-mails. Please call me at (803) 359-3351.

Best Regards, George

Mark, that is a really nice Daly and looks to be in excellent condition. A great find and a great price.

I'm going to show a couple of pictures of my Daly and maybe this will help explain what Eightbore is referring to when he says "etched". The first picture is the original barrels to my gun and they are "etched". By that I mean they have a very definite texture to them. They are not smooth. BTW, these barrels are in original finish, they have not been redone.


The second set of barrels are what is called "Manufacture Extra". This nomeclature is from the company catalog of (forgive the missing accent marks) Manufacture Liegeoise d'Armes a Feu. Portions of this catalog are printed in Manfred Sachase's book on damascus steel. At the time of manufacture it appears that these barrrels were 5 times more expensive that the cheapest barrels from this company. This set of barrels have been redone in the classic black & white.

I believe $3000 hammer price.

If you spent the equivalent of a "used Citori priced gun", you did Exceptionally well.


More like "a graded used citori".

The barrels have been shipped to Pete Mazur and his state-of-the-art ultrasound-barrel-wall-thickness-gauge or what ever he calls it. I wish I had taken better barrel pics to show how stupid some gun owners are. On the side of the left barrel close to the muzzle someone tried to "blue" what was an honestly worn area, at least he recognized his mistake before attempting to re-blue the entire barrels. There are heavy "brown" areas that looks to be an old lacquer finish or a re-finish with the wrong color. Hence the reason I ask what was the correct Damascus color.


Also, are Damascus barrels typically thicker than steel? With my bore gauge and micrometer the barrels are between .09/.08 which is more than twice the thickness of most steel barrels.

Doug Mann's gun with the textured barrels is about the best looking gun I have ever seen. Certainly would top my list of most desireable. What is the possiblity of posting a more complete set of photos of the gun Doug?

I'll see what I can do Jerry. The bathrobe that I use for a background is just barely big enough to use for photos.

Jerry, what you should be asking for is "before and after" pictures of the great Doug Mann Lindner. When it lived at my house, the gun was the proverbial basket case, although the etched barrels were pretty unmolested. Maybe Doug will give us a synopsis of the entire restoration process, way more than just barrel refinishing and restocking. I have never been more happy to relocate a fine gun to a more responsible home. Bill Murphy