doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com .410 chokes and patterns

Although this was not a very scientific test (samples of only one shot per choke) I found it mildly reassuring as my Italian made Rottweil O/U has fixed 1/4 and 1/2 chokes.

I believe the winner of the British .410 Championship last August (93/100) was using extra full and extra full in his Browning Crown Grade but then he’s him and I’m me.

There is substantial performance difference between 14g and 18g cartridges.
292 vs 400? pellets.
American skeet rules limit payload to 1/2 oz. So, 2 1/2" hulls at 1250-1300 lobbing out 292 #9's most of the time.

Unregistered shoots don't seem to care, so, unless you are shooting for money, and they check such things, go big or go home, and shoot 3/4oz stuffed in 3" brass cases.
Impress everybody with the ink balls. Maybe win a hat.

When I shoot 11/16 oz 7.5's at 1250, I increase my percentages by just about the same percentage as the payload increase. Uncanny.
But if I go up to the 1 oz 20ga, I don't shoot 100% better. So, for me, payload has a point of diminishing returns on the clays course in small bore.

Ultimately, it's aiming error, not payload, for me.
.410 is great for upping your game, because it magnifies deficiencies in your pre-shot routine, concentration, and consistency.

I'm glad you are having fun with the .410.

If you want some interesting videos to watch about .410 shooting, go to UTube and type in Cazza Rizzini TV. go to Videos where he tests all the.410 hulls he could get, patterns all, checks velocity on all and gives a point system to all as far as results. The testing is called .410 Ammo test and he also goes afield after doves and wood pigeons. He only recommends full choke and he has won the .410 Italian Championship in 2018.
Quite impressive and notice his vest Club .410.

If not for shooting the .410 I would have been done shooting 30 plus years ago. I’ve shot a lot of .410 and have seen ammo improvements that makes todays .410 twice as lethal as is was just 30 years ago. A .410 will never be the true equal of anything from the 12 to the 28. But within limits it gets the job done, just as well if you do your part. It is not a 40 yard gun. Limit it to 30-33 yards and it is almost certain to get the job done. Keep it under 25 and it will always be capable of doing the job.

Missing some important info here. When people reference 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, Full in 12 gauge, you can make some reasonable assumptions about how much constriction in thousand's/in they're talking about. Once you move into smaller bores all bets are off. I've run into some top line Italian makers who seem to think 1/2 is 5/10 mm, or .020" in any bore. What is the constriction of the choke tubes in the video and what are the actual constrictions of your Rottweil? His 1/4 and 1/2 may be considerably different than yours.

That's true.
Skeet shooting is optimized at 21 yards. Pattern tests show an 18" circle with a hot core. People run 500 straight w/ 1/2oz loads.
As you know, sporting clays is a game played at greater distances to keep it from becoming skeet in the woods.
The level of precision to get consistent breaks after 30 yards is really impressive. It's hard. It takes practice.
And by and large the scores reflect it.
A choke set up to give clean breaks at 40 would be a bb gun at 10. Quite a handicap if chokes are fixed.
azgreg, I wouldn't get too hung up on UK choke descriptors.
The US tends to use points of constriction, and the UK seems to manage with fractions.

.410 factory chokes and choke tube constriction are all over the place in a .410. Take all charts with a large grain of salt. The only way to know is by patterning them. I’ve seen Full chokes anywhere from .013 to .027”.

My uncle had one barrel choked so tight in his little .410 double, at ten yards it was at most 4 - 6”. Hit a late quail, with that and it is a pillow fight. That was until I tried a load without a wad. Then it made more sense. His shells 60-70 years ago had no wads to protect the shot. With a wad it was unusable but for anything past 25 yards. It would crush a high four at Skeet. Without it was still tight but not unreasonably tight. Then his choice of load made sense.

This is exactly what I was attempting to say.

Greg

Here's a photo of gun and pattern of my Yildiz TK36 .410. Yesterday I was in Stan's neck of the woods to try out some Comp N Chokes at nearby Hiltonia where the owner allowed me to check out various chokes on the company range. This is the one I selected: .390. This is a specialized .410 for wild turkeys and was "built" on the field grade Yildiz TK36 that I purchased new from Academy for $130. Through a collaborative effort of gunsmiths and choke makers, it is a shooter. SKB crafted the front sight holder featuring a Marble Post. Sumtoy Customs did the trigger work and threaded the barrel cut off to 20". The rear sight is an adjustable peep by Skinner. Sumtoy had to mill the radius flat on the slightly curved action to mount it. The load is 13/16 oz. of #10 TSS. One oz. of #10 contains 500 pellets. The calculated amount of shot in the load I used is 406. The actual number of holes on the paper is 404. 179 in the 10" center ring with 225 outside the 10" circle. The velocity is a subsonic 1000 fps with more than adequate penetration to over 45 yards. All but 2 pellets are on the paper and all are contained inside a ring of less than 24", but two is based on count of 1 oz. I weigh the load and don't go above 600 grains on shot. One additional shot can go over 600. This gun will hunt. I've shot the same gun successfully for the past 12 seasons with the same load but that gun features a red dot sight. Both guns are 3.25 lbs. but the depicted gun has a shorter barrel by 4". . Gil

We would be interested in the range the pattern was shot and the percentage of shot in a 30" circle at that range. Wow, what a neat gun. Half the weight of a .410 Model 37 Winchester.

According to Gil's notes the pattern was shot at 40 yards.

Yes, 40 yards. As noted, I had 406 shot in the load based on calculation and not actual count. The target at the range is 40 yards from the bench. I verified it with a laser rangefinder. I counted 404 holes inside a not quite 24" diameter circle. Let's say 99.99% in both 24 and 30" circles. With an anodized alloy action and satin chromed exterior on the barrel, it is relatively corrosion resistant. Gil

99% in a 24" or 30" circle at 40 yards makes a Super Fox look like a skeet gun. OK, if you say so.

That is a heck of a 40 yard target(pattern). 40 yards and 99% of pellets inside a 24” circle. Wow. Even for a special set up that is impressive.

Much of the credit, most actually, for the patterns goes to Gil for crafting his loads. But, I found years ago that the Comp N Choke and Kick's brands of choke tubes that my friends at Comp N Choke create are very impressive. I've shot some unbelievably uniform patterns with them. I've watched them make hundreds on their CNC machines and they tell me there's no magic involved in their manufacture, just acute attention to tolerances and quality material.

Stan, thanks for the kind words but the "recipe" was sent to me 12 years ago by a man who developed the load. Following a tested recipe is like baking a Betty Crocker cake. Follow instructions to the letter. I've been fortunate to know folks such as SKB, Hal Abbott, William Lambert of Sumtoy and now Stuart Boswell of Comp N Choke all of whom have helped me in this obsession with loads and turkey guns. I recall meeting Stuart's dad on a dove shoot with you years ago behind his shop. Gil

Here's a pattern I shot yesterday at Floyd's with the same gun at 40 yards, measured with a range finder. The load is 5/8 oz. of #10 tss with a reported velocity of 1189 fps. It will run out of pattern before running out of penetration, the converse of the 13/16 oz. slower load. The circle is 10" OD and contains 101 shot holes. Gil

To get back to the content of the original thread, I have now watched the chap's video, and would be more concerned about the regulation of his cheap Turkish over-under than about the patterns.

His second and fourth shots using the top barrel were about 9 inches higher then the patterns shot with the lower barrel. So are these barrels parallel or was he just unlucky?

Of course trying to get any valid data from a single shot is a bit daft, as we say over here...

HB

HB, I have two "cheap Turkish" S X S doubles, a Yildiz and a Dickinson. Both of them are perfectly regulated. I do realize you were commenting on O/Us, however.

The problems I've seen with "cheap Turkish" O/Us haven't been with regulation, and I've been around some, rather it has always been with inept single triggers.