doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Dating a boxlock by its Anson&Deeley PUN?

Does anyone know of a reference showing when a patent-use-number might have been assigned to an Anson & Deeley boxlock?

I'm referring to the number stamped on the action flats under the left barrel and marked "Anson & Deeley's Patent XXXX" I'm looking to know if I can tell when a particular gun with made using this PUN marking.

Were ranges assigned in blocks to different makers, of did they all work with Westley Richards to have a number assigned to their specific gun in question?

For reference, I'm looking at a piece with a patent use number of 58XX. I've seen some other guns with higher numbers suggesting the gun I'm researching was pre-1893, if the numbers were done sequentially across all makers. Proofs on the gun are pre-nitro.

Thank you,
Chris

Has been much discussion over APUN numbers here over the years. Someone here has a partial dated list and should chime in. Try a search using APUN.

I went down this rabbit hole numerous times, most recently looking at A&D pun's. Bottom line is - there is no consistency and thus you cannot use these numbers to date a gun, unless it's very early on or is one of the last numbers used before the expiration of a patent. Believe me.. I assembled databases, created graphs, did the research, looked over several popular patents. Don't even try to go there except for fun.

And by the way, the A&D patent expired on 10 May 1889 which should mean your gun is pre- that date. (Or at least the action was built before that date).

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=567037

For what it's worth in my Reilly database of extant guns (and PUN's are rarely published in ads) the last known Reilly gun with a published/known A&D PUN is 30768 - E.M. Reilly & Co., 16, New Oxford Street, London. 12 ga. Shotgun SxS. BLE. A&D patent use #8245. The Reilly SN dates per my chart to fall 1888. Reilly probably built another 300 box-locks between 30768 and the expiration of the A&D patent - those guns no longer exist or have yet to come to light.

And Chris, how about some information on your gun. That is always interesting; photos included.

I'm being a little coy about the gun in question as it's currently for sale. If I get it you know I'll share...I've saved pics from its listing and will share those if it sells and I don't get it. As always, thank you for the diligence you invest in making sense of PUNs and Reilly SNs. Regarding patents, I guess in a market place in the late 1800s it's not entirely surprising that limitations in the speed of communication would lead to compensating strategies for managing things like patent use numbers. Likewise, inventory does sometimes get stranded, sometimes for years. That applies to completed guns but I would think also actions furnished in the white. FWIW, I once was able to buy a pretty 28ga Beretta 687EELL from a big box retailer because I knew they had it in stock for 7 years already. (I do own 5x as many sxs as o/u's, so please don't stone me.)

I still, in spite of my own experience, am always interested in patent use numbers and wish the auction houses would publish them. If so we might be able to establish some patterns. Whatever, with an A&D pun the gun you're looking at is surely pre May 1889. . .

Gene Williams

And by the way in the late 19th century you could take a train from London and be in Moscow in 72 hours. I do not underestimate the efficiency of business back then. It was in many ways superior to our time.

I agree with Argo44 that A&D patent use numbers are of little if any assistance in dating a gun. I think that they may have been allocated in blocks to different makers.

That raises the question, has anyone encountered a duplicate PUN on guns from different makers?

The Edwinson Green shown above, an early A&D with no bottom bolt probably dates from 1880 as its serial number is slightly below 2922 recorded when the surviving Edwinson Green records start in 1881

I learned from the guns maker that it sold early in 1889

Still would like to know details on the gun. Photos would be nice.