doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com American-made Damascus

Noting Mr. Chamber's post of p.220(I assume 9th edition): on page 216: "The method of making barrels prior to the introduction of Damascus iron from the East was to forge them from plates or strips of iron-this iron manufactured from old horse-shoe nails-not perhaps so much because of the virtue in the metal as from the fact that the nail forgers were particular smiths who made the gun barrels." This could explain all the refs to horse-nails.

Kind Regards

Raimey
rse

Robert and Miller have shared some valuable knowledge. I certainly appreciate the information. They describe a very different approach from the billet method. Possibly one that has older roots in the eastern roots of welded damascus. I think it would be safe to assume that the billet method was a later development. There are examples from circa 1700 India where a type of billet was certainly used.

The Belgians relied heavily on rolling mills. They even used the history of their rolling mills to trace the development of the damascus barrel industry. Noting carefully when and where such mills were established.

Certainly the English had as many rolling mills, perhaps more. It was all part of the developing industrialization that was taking place across Europe and America. The English also used the billet method as the barrels plainly show.

So in keeping on topic with this thread. Of the existent American examples of welded damascus. Was there a dominant type? Stub vs billet so to speak. Are there examples of American produced crolle?

Pete

On a different note. I "paged" through the 1860 US Census book for Lisle. An approach I have not used much. Interesting tidbits. At the end of the book, the enumerator had a count of 1792 people. I did not keep an exact count, however, something approach 95%+ were farmers. Maybe 300-400 families in total. 1 physician, 1 school teacher, 2 wagon makers and 15-20 blacksmiths. It would appear to me that is way too many blacksmiths for a small farming community. Unless of course, they are busy making barrels.

Pete

Very interesting information, thanks to all who shared!

Craig

Pictured is a set of Parker 1877 G grade damascus barrels that I am in the process of finishing (about 3 more iterations and final logwood bath still remain). These are interesting in that they show three distinct and different components between the ribands on one of the tubes. This is somewhat unusual but clearly indicates that different rods were sometimes used in the construction of the tubes. These barrels also display more open "scrolls" than usually found on later Parker barrels. Could these atypical barrels be a set of Meriden produced barrels that EDM mentioned in his post? Who knows, but they are certainly an interesting set of barrels.

Post deleted by Robert Chambers

Baker went to Syracuse from Lisle to partner with LC and Leroy Smith to form the basis of the LC Smith Co. Baker had a shop on Dudley Creek before leaving for Syracuse where he made his double and 3 barrel guns. He and Leroy(with Baker's latest design) came to Ithaca circa 1883 to start the Ithaca Gun Co. The early catalogs specifically mentioned Baker's "Ithaca gun" to differentiate it from the Baker gun produced by the LC Co.
The late Jerry Swinney and I, with the help of a local historian, visited the site of the Losey and Lull forge. The mill pond and the foundation were then discernible. I remember finding a sector of a large grinding stone that we left in place. Jerry showed me a L&L catalog illustrating rifle barrels, NO shotgun barrels. At least some of the illustrations clearly were a 'twist' type composite. I don't know what happened to Jerry's research library. He was the comsummant researcher! It was a pleasure to travel with him as we did on several occasions.
The Bob Edwards home place was almost across the road from the forge. Bob Edwards shows up in the Nov. 1883 Ithaca Gun Co. time books. There is a large Edward's monument in the Brocktondale cemetery where Bob and his family are interred. BTW, Fred Crass shows up in July, 1883 if my memory serves.

Post deleted by Robert Chambers

We do have some sources other than the shamelessly self-promoting W. and W.W. Greener.

Shooting Simplified By James Dalziel Dougall 1865
http://books.google.com/books?id=BkACAAAAQAAJ&dq=w+greener+barrel+patents

Shooting By Baron Thomas de Grey Walsingham, Sir Ralph Payne-Gallwey, Lord Charles Lennox Kerr, Archibald John Stuart-Wortley, Gerald
Lascelles, Simon Fraser Lovat 1886
http://books.google.com/books?id=MT9NF4B...th+edition+1910

From the Journal of The Federation of Insurance Institutes of Great Britain and Ireland, 1904 "Gun and Small-Arms Factories" by A.E. Patrick, p. 149-175 From 'Gun Barrels' starting on p. 159
The iron for the manufacture of sporting gun barrels was formerly made from finest scrap iron, such as old horse-shoes, nail stubs and the like. In preparing the metal for the old-fashioned laminated steel barrels, a number of scraps were collected of various proportions, the clippings of saws, steel pens, and scraps of best iron, which were placed for some time in a shaking barrel for cleansing, and then hand picked, in order that any pieces which had the appearance of cast iron might be removed. They were then cut into pieces of the same size, melted together, gathered into a bloom, and the mass placed under a tilt hammer, welded into a block of iron which was immediately rolled into bars. The bars were then cut into regular lengths, and the required quantity laid together and fastened into a faggot, this faggot was again heated in the furnace and hammered and rolled into rods of the size required by the barrel welders. The supply of fine old scrap does not now meet the demand, so at the present time the metal for gun barrels is made from a mixture of the best iron ores. The iron is made into rods, and subjected to hammering and rolling, which condenses the metal and increases the ductility and tenacity by elongating and densifying the fibres. The faggots are heated and welded seven times during the process of manufacture of the best barrel metal. The iron for the manufacture of gun barrels is made in square rods of various thicknesses for the best barrels, and in flat rods for plain twist or scelp barrels. To give the Damascus figure the square rods are first twisted, the operation being carefully overlooked to guard against one portion being twisted more rapidly than the other. This process is repeated until the rod is perfectly twisted and a regular figure in the barrel insured. It is this twisting of the rods that makes the difference between a best barrel and a common one. All Damascus barrels must be made of twisted rods. Plain twist or scelp barrels are made from plain straight rods or ribands. It is the twist in the rods that cause the figure to appear in the barrels and all iron so twisted is called "Damascus," from the town Damascus, where a similar process was first practised for the far-famed Damascus sword blades. The prepared rod is either joined to other rods or coiled and welded into a barrel singly. Damascus barrels are made from one, two, or three twisted rods, and occasionally the Continental makers use four to six rods together. The Damascus barrels, as made in England, are usually manufactured from three twisted rods, which is quite sufficient to form a very fine figure in the barrel. Laminated steel barrels are twisted and the rods welded in the same manner as the Damascus, but the rods are composed of superiour metal containing a larger percentage of steel. The rods having been twisted and the required number welded together, they are then rolled at a red heat into ribands. The ribands are then twisted into spiral form, again heated, and the coil well hammered until thoroughly welded. The proportionate amounts of the different descriptions of metal in a barrel determine its quality. Best English Damascus and modern laminated steel contain 60 per cont. of steel. The amount of steel is determined upon before making the metal into faggots for the last time. If for scelp barrels, the strips of iron are twice the thickness of the steel, the faggots being formed of alternate layers of iron and steel. In single iron Damascus barrels the proportion of iron is not much less than the steel, and although not passing through so many processes as the best barrels, is still far superiour in quality to ordinary iron. In twisting the rods every care is taken to keep the edges of the iron and steel strips to the outside, for it is the twisting of the different metals that gives the various figures in the finished barrel. The steel being hard, resists the acids employed in the browning process and retains a white or light brown hue, whilst the iron, or softer metal, is so acted upon by the acid as to be changed into a dark brown or black colour. There is nothing in the process calling for any particular notice as far as fire risk is concerned. If in a suitable building there is no more risk than in a smithy, and in the whole course of my insurance experience I can only remember having one claim for a smithy being destroyed.


I tend to agree with Salopian that the truth, or something closer to it, is "...sitting in the archives of the Museums of Birmingham, Wednesbury, Shrewsbury..." or maybe in some town in upstate New York.

Walt,

Thanks for sharing the memories of your trip. It is fascinating reading. I hopefully will make use of it. I need to go back and take a look at some of these smaller communities. The problem is the time line. What I am referring to is the available data takes a nose dive because the 1890 census data was damaged in a fire. I have read that there are efforts to reconstruct the records.

Robert,

In answer to your question. Thank you very much for offering to share with me. I have always held a strong belief that information, especially historical information, should be made widely available. To that end, if you would not mind, please share the information here on doublegunshop. I know there others, more skilled than myself, who could make good use of it. Someday, perhaps a GNU like public copyright should be written for such information.

Drew,

Always a treasure house of information!!

Pete