doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Dating early 20th Century French Shotguns

Here is the best I can do for resolution on 14340

Now there is a legitimate question about the Didier-Drevet company, how it evolved, the splits and separations and who controlled the serial numbers; because there were barrels, then guns, then an amalgamation with Ronchard-Cizeron, etc. That has to reside in French gun literature. I'll try to research it unless FAB can save me the pleasure of research.

And this is the problem with Naturabuy - marketing: Somehow the sellers can't bring themselves to post really good photos (the disease is universal: English auction houses post good photos but not of barrel and action flats; guntrader and gunstar are often awful).

Here is a Didier-Drevet barrel (part of the two forwarded by FAB500) which per the comments on the gun is dated to 1905. Not a chance to confirm the SN or the date from this crappy photo.
https://www.naturabuy.fr/DIDIER-DREVET-LUXE-PLUME-16-65-item-10456388.html

Salut Argo,



Le 11 juin 1912, Berthon dépose la marque "Canons Gallia".
Le 12 février 1919, la marque "Canons Gallia marque déposée".

Si j'en crois mes sources, ce fusil est postérieur à 1918.

Merci Fab. The problem with dating chambers of barrels stamped using cm in Saint Etienne is this; We are dating barrels, not guns. Barrels can sometimes be stockpiled for years before being mated to a gun. However, the barrels are what were stamped with cm or mm and may or may not be helpful in dating a gun. They are one more piece of evidence to consider.

Merci Fab. Le problème de la datation des cambrures des canons estampillés au cm à Saint Etienne est le suivant; Les canons sont datés, pas les fusils. Les canons peuvent parfois être stockés pendant des années avant d'être accouplés à une arme à feu. Cependant, les canons sont ceux qui ont été estampillés en cm ou en mm et peuvent ou non être utiles pour dater une arme à feu. Ils sont un élément de preuve de plus à considérer.

What cannot be denied though are two dated Didier-Drevet barrels, one from 1912 and one from 1918, both chambered in mm.

Ce qui est indéniable, ce sont deux canons Didier-Drevet datés, l'un de 1912 et l'autre de 1918, tous deux chambrés en mm.

1). 1912 13689? 18.4; 65 chambered in mm; Note the 1912 shift to mm.
http://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusil-Juxtapose-St-Etienne-cal-12-70-Didier-DREVET-item-3577295.html



2). 1918 Didier-Drevet - "Skeetz"'s gun:
Didier-Drevet Eureka Canon Plume barrels; 18.4; 65; 1918 - 14204

I took a second look at the 1912 DD barrel. I had recorded the number and photo when it was posted on Naurabuy. That posting no longer exists. However, trying to blow it up and make it clearer, the date could conceivably be 1918 - SN 17982.

J'ai jeté un deuxième coup d'œil au canon 1912 DD. J'avais enregistré le numéro et la photo lors de sa publication sur Naurabuy. Cette annonce n'existe plus. Cependant, en essayant de le faire exploser et de le rendre plus clair, la date pourrait être 1918 - NS 17982.



Wildcattle noted that the change from the CGS system in Saint Etienne (centimeter, gram, second) to the MKS system (meter, kilogram, second) occurred in 1889. He believed the change back to the CGS occurred around WWI. Since I may have mis-read the 1912 . . .we'll re-open the question. A 1918 date would certainly make it easier to fit-in the Robust and the Canons Gallia.

Wildcattle a noté que le passage du système CGS à Saint-Étienne (centimètre, gramme, seconde) au système MKS (mètre, kilogramme, seconde) s'est produit en 1889. Il pensait que le retour au CGS s'était produit autour de la Première Guerre mondiale. Comme j'ai peut-être mal lu le 1912 . . .nous allons reouvrir la question. 1918 faciliterait certainement l'intégration du Robust et des Canons Gallia.

But for sure the change back to CGS had to have occurred by 1918. There is no mistaking the stamps on Skeetz's barrels.

Mais il est certain que le retour à CGS a dû avoir lieu en 1918. Il n'y a aucun doute sur les timbres sur les canons de Skeetz.

So now we need more Didier-Drevet dated barrels.

Mike, is that top picture your Didier Drevet 1918 SN 14204? If so, it's clearly 6.5 cm and my thesis about 1912 let alone 1918 being the changeover year is wrong (unless the above SN 17982 is in fact "14982" and the date is 1918).

I'm now not sure that SN 15034 (date not pictured) that I said was undated is actually 65mm. The chambered numbers are obscured but are suspiciously far apart and could be 6.5:



The earliest dated Didier-Drevet barrel chambered in mm (after the 30 year break) now possibly is 1918? - 17982?? above - and 17982 is not a 1918 SN; both numbers are not clear.

The next dated Didier-Drevet barrel is on this 1924 gun:
1). Didier Drevet barrel dated 1924; 1924 - 2?871 (or 1?871 ??); gun number 1886 for gun labeled "Excelsior." (per other ads for Excelsior's in the period which are chronologically serial numbered apparently). 10 gauge ( 19.2); chamber: 75mm (chambered in mm)(3"). modèle EXCELSIOR. (This is from the Naturabuy advertisement. The photos show a chamber of ".655" whatever that means).

So now we're up to at least 1918, possibly as high as 1924 for the changeover year. We need more DD dated barrels or more solid analysis, maybe an Ideal dated per JC Mournetas or some other gun with a date marker, to determine when the first mm chambered gun came back to Saint-Etienne. FAB, as usual, was right.

Nous en sommes donc maintenant à au moins 1918, peut-être jusqu'à 1924 pour l'année de basculement. Nous avons besoin de plus de canons datés DD ou d'analyses plus solides, peut-être un Idéal daté par JC Mournetas ou un autre fusil avec un marqueur de date chambre en mm, pour déterminer quand le premier canon à chambre mm est revenu à Saint-Etienne. FAB, comme d'habitude, avait raison.

1918 . 14204

and

19488 is stamped on the barrel set

Mike, 19488 is the SN of the gun, not the barrel. What I can't figure is the Helice-Gripp (supposedly Verney Carron) but with the top lever screw visible, indicating it's likely a Scott Spindle knock off. Now I'm out at sea trying to figure out the first mm chambered Saint-Etienne gun after WWI; I'm still holding onto 1918 but barely based on the fuzzy photos of 17982. What is the gun with the Canon Marsot?