doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Damascus explained

Came up with this:
"Damascus or twist-steel barrels are made by layering alternate strips of steel and iron then welding them together. The strips are then twisted until they resembled a screw, three of these wound strips are then welded together, wound around a steel mandrel, then welded and hammered into a barrel tube. Laminated steel barrels are a bit different. They start with a ball of steel and iron that is then hammered into long strips and twisted, then, like their Damascus cousin, wound around a mandrel, welded and hammered into a barrel tube."
From The Shotgun Encyclopedia by John Taylor

It would be a fascinating trip to explore the Belgian Patent office (if I spoke French.) It's likely most of the Belgian damascus patterns were patented, and likely the patents were ignored as all the members of Syndicat des Fabricants de Canons de Fusil de la Vesdre made 'Bernard', 'Boston', etc.
Desire Mineur, of Prayon, Liege, claimed exclusive rights to "Chain-pattern" damascus in 1904, despite the fact that the pattern had been used for at least 20 yrs.

revdocdrew:

Also, examining the core definition of laminated requires the use of strips. Either Greener was about the only authority on damascus barrel making or he lifted the plates or figures from someone who did because almost all the sketches I have seen either reference of look curiously familiar to Greener's. What year was Tayor's book or what was his reference. Being redundant, I still subscribe to the thought that the mixture in making Damascus changed with time(amount iron > steel, then amount steel > iron). But what was the definition of iron in the beginning?

But you have to be correct in your statement because in Dig's book laminated steel is defined as being "made from best quality steel scrap mixed with some charcoal iron and worked under a forge hammer repeatedly until the close and even grain desired was achieved." I just need to rationalize it for myself because if you read some of Greener's ramblings in "Modern Breech-Loaders", it is not so apparent unless you know the composition of the "mild steel" and others that are mixed.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Jack You hit the nail on the head
Casey

Unfortunately then, as now, words mean simply what the writer intends for them to mean, and once an opionion or statement is made, it is repeated thereafter over and over until it is established as 'common knowledge.' Dig's statement about laminated steel being made with charcoal iron is a new one. It is very likely that production techniques changed significantly through the 1800s. Certainly Greener thought damascus was weaker than Stub Twist in 1835. Some form of Laminated steel seemed to be the barrel of choice for high grade guns in the 1860s-1870s, then English Three Iron Crolle (at least by Purdey), then Whitworth steel by the 1890s.

revdocdrew:

So, where is is Manton's, Purdey's(the Trinity's), Whitworth's definition of Damascus and what was their recipe on barrel making? Or did most of the tubes originate in Birmingham or Belgium? Here's what I intend to do: review all the Greener works, and others if available, and try to put them in perspective in a time line, comparing apples to apples, not apples to oranges. I'd appreciate any input or any additional references you have.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I don't have any sources other than those already cited, including these two. Pete M is off bird hunting, and likely has some more.

Shooting By Baron Thomas de Grey Walsingham, Sir Ralph Payne-Gallwey, Lord Charles Lennox Kerr, Archibald John Stuart-Wortley, Gerald
Lascelles, Simon Fraser Lovat 1886
http://books.google.com/books?id=MT9NF4B...th+edition+1910
A Short History of Gun-making starts on p. 83
http://books.google.com/books?id=MT9NF4B...and%22#PPA51,M1
Best Silver Steel Damascus barrels contain over 70% of the finest steel, and it is the systematic twisting and arrangement of the iron and steel bars, as they are welded together and beaten into a flat ribbon before being coiled into the form of a tube, that give the beautiful figure or pattern observed in a first-class twist barrel...
Laminated steel barrels differ but slightly from those known as 'Damascus.' The former were first made by Mr. W. Greener (senior), of Birmingham, about 1850, and were composed of three parts steel and one part iron. At the present time the best English damascus, as well as laminated steel barrels, contain over 60% of the harder metal, and there is little perceptible difference between Damascus and a laminated Damascus barrel, as both are of very similar workmanship and materials.

From the Journal of The Federation of Insurance Institutes of Great Britain and Ireland, 1904 "Gun and Small-Arms Factories" by A.E. Patrick, p. 149-175 From 'Gun Barrels' starting on p. 159
The iron for the manufacture of sporting gun barrels was formerly made from finest scrap iron, such as old horse-shoes, nail stubs and the like. In preparing the metal for the old-fashioned laminated steel barrels, a number of scraps were collected of various proportions, the clippings of saws, steel pens, and scraps of best iron, which were placed for some time in a shaking barrel for cleansing, and then hand picked, in order that any pieces which had the appearance of cast iron might be removed. They were then cut into pieces of the same size, melted together, gathered into a bloom, and the mass placed under a tilt hammer, welded into a block of iron which was immediately rolled into bars. The bars were then cut into regular lengths, and the required quantity laid together and fastened into a faggot, this faggot was again heated in the furnace and hammered and rolled into rods of the size required by the barrel welders. The supply of fine old scrap does not now meet the demand, so at the present time the metal for gun barrels is made from a mixture of the best iron ores. The iron is made into rods, and subjected to hammering and rolling, which condenses the metal and increases the ductility and tenacity by elongating and densifying the fibres. The faggots are heated and welded seven times during the process of manufacture of the best barrel metal. The iron for the manufacture of gun barrels is made in square rods of various thicknesses for the best barrels, and in flat rods for plain twist or scelp barrels. To give the Damascus figure the square rods are first twisted, the operation being carefully overlooked to guard against one portion being twisted more rapidly than the other. This process is repeated until the rod is perfectly twisted and a regular figure in the barrel insured. It is this twisting of the rods that makes the difference between a best barrel and a common one. All Damascus barrels must be made of twisted rods. Plain twist or scelp barrels are made from plain straight rods or ribands. It is the twist in the rods that cause the figure to appear in the barrels and all iron so twisted is called "Damascus," from the town Damascus, where a similar process was first practised for the far-famed Damascus sword blades. The prepared rod is either joined to other rods or coiled and welded into a barrel singly. Damascus barrels are made from one, two, or three twisted rods, and occasionally the Continental makers use four to six rods together. The Damascus barrels, as made in England, are usually manufactured from three twisted rods, which is quite sufficient to form a very fine figure in the barrel. Laminated steel barrels are twisted and the rods welded in the same manner as the Damascus, but the rods are composed of superiour metal containing a larger percentage of steel. The rods having been twisted and the required number welded together, they are then rolled at a red heat into ribands. The ribands are then twisted into spiral form, again heated, and the coil well hammered until thoroughly welded. The proportionate amounts of the different descriptions of metal in a barrel determine its quality. Best English Damascus and modern laminated steel contain 60 per cont. of steel. The amount of steel is determined upon before making the metal into faggots for the last time. If for scelp barrels, the strips of iron are twice the thickness of the steel, the faggots being formed of alternate layers of iron and steel. In single iron Damascus barrels the proportion of iron is not much less than the steel, and although not passing through so many processes as the best barrels, is still far superiour in quality to ordinary iron. In twisting the rods every care is taken to keep the edges of the iron and steel strips to the outside, for it is the twisting of the different metals that gives the various figures in the finished barrel. The steel being hard, resists the acids employed in the browning process and retains a white or light brown hue, whilst the iron, or softer metal, is so acted upon by the acid as to be changed into a dark brown or black colour. There is nothing in the process calling for any particular notice as far as fire risk is concerned. If in a suitable building there is no more risk than in a smithy, and in the whole course of my insurance experience I can only remember having one claim for a smithy being destroyed.

"Iron" should mean relatively pure iron as they knew pretty well how to make that. "Mild steel" shold mean non-heat treatable steel - around 0.2% carbon content. I don't think they were very sophisticated in identifying carbon content in heat treatable steels. Springs were most likely in the 0.7% - 0.9% carbon content region. The "bloom" was at welding temperature, so the steel was annealed, but the iron and steel chips were not totally melted. If melted, you would have wound up with simply lower carbon steel due to the inclusion of iron. The chips, wheter iron or steel, retained their identies.

Control of this process would involve the ratio of iron to steel, the grade of both iron and steel, chip sizes, uniformity of welding, and the amount of hot working and cold working of the rods produced from the bloom. Patterning should have been random, but probably got some orientation due to chip shapes and hammering.

I'd agree that terminology, materials, and measurements changed dramatically during the production period. I'd also bet that most patterns were "trade secret" rather than patented. Trade secrets tend to disappear with the last man standing.

"Trade secrets tend to disappear with the last man standing."
Excellent, and sad, point.

Here is a patent for Heuse-Lemoine

Two questions: what about info on Marshall of Birmingham(Dig reference) who made tubes and an off the wall question of the effect of cracking the speed of sound in a Damascus tube, or any tube for that matter of fact, and the harmonics that the event sets up??

Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse

From the 1956 Shooter's Bible (likely a pre-WW I sales brochure)