doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Dating early 20th Century French Shotguns

Raimey, Fab500 read our line and posted a "Robust" barrel (which came out in 1913) with chambers in cm. This challenged the thesis that the change to measuring chambers from cm back to mm in Saint Etienne was summer 1912 as postulated. He believed it was later possibly 1913+

I posted
-- the "Gallia" barrels which had chambers in cm..certainly made (or stamped) after the name was trademarked in 11 June 1912.
-- And a Didier Drevet barrel dated 1912 with chambers in mm.
Which indicates the change-over was indeed in 1912 sometime after June of that year.

But how to explain that "Robust" barrel? First..it looks odd...it has the French comma for a decimal point - all the other guns chambered in cm from 1889 - 1912 use a simple decimal point. So I don't take that as definitive. What I hope is that FAB500 will post some of this on some of the French sites and we'll get a flood of information.

I want to add these Posts to the "Dating French Shotguns" line so it's all in one spot - this has the potential to be a breakthrough:
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=608762&page=5

#609002 01/06/22 10:04 PM
Merci Fab...et en particulier pour l'analyse de C643. ma conclusion que le changement de CM a MM survenu en 1912 était basé sur les canons daté de Didier Drevet. c'est le seul daté piece de rechange pour les fusils de Saint-Etienne que j'ai trouvé.

Mais voici la question. Nous essayons de dater un fait historique par l'analyse. Il y a sûrement des enregistrements à Saint Etienne sur le moment où cela s'est produit. La famille de ma femme nous vient de Saint Chamond. Je pourrais leur demander d'enquêter. Mais pour un spécialiste français des armes à feu... cela semble être un sujet de recherche important.
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Hopefully this will get the French shotgun community energized:

"Thanks Fab..and in particular for the analysis of C643. My conclusion that the changeover from cm to mm took place in 1912 was based on dated barrels by Didier Drevet. These are the only dated Saint-Etienne gun parts that I've found

But here is the question. We have tried to date a historical fact by analysis. There is surely information in Saint-Etienne on the date when this occurred. My wife's family is from Saint Chamond. I could ask them to investigate. But for a specialist in French fire-arms..this would seem to be an important subject of research."

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#609042 01/07/22 06:34 PM
Salut Argo,

Habitant loin de Saint-Etienne, il ne m'est pas possible de m'y rendre pour y faire des recherches.

Je viens d'envoyer un mail au Banc d'épreuve de Saint-Etienne pour leur demander s'ils pouvaient me communiquer des renseignements, et éventuellement m'indiquer où je pourrais les trouver. En espérant qu'ils seront disponibles pour m'apporter une réponse.

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Living far from Saint-Etienne, it not possible for me to go there to do research.

I just sent a letter to the Saint-Etienne proof-house asking them if they could send me some information and eventually let me know where I could find it. Hoping they will be accomodating and send a response.


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01/07/22 08:22 PM
Formidable! J'avais l'intention de visiter Saint-Etienne le prochain fois nous étions dans la region de Saint-Chamond...mais avec covid c'est difficile. J'espère que vous recevrez de bonnes nouvelles. Je n'ai pas eu beaucoup de succès avec les archives de Paris. La date de basculement 'est une date historique pour les fusils de chasse de Saint-Etienne et je suis sûr que Passionlachasse serait également intéressée.

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Great! I intended to visit Saint-Etienne the next tie we were in the region of Saint-Chamond...but it's difficult with Covid. I hope that you receive some good news. I have not had much siuccess with the Paris Archives. The date of the changeover is a historical date for Saint-Etienne shotguns and I'm sure that Passionlachasse.Fr would also be interested.

Hello all, this is my first post. Not sure how to add pics on here yet. Has anyone ever seen a 32 Guage Saint Etienne "& cycles"? I do have one and it's definitely a 32 Guage.

Shane, suggest you post this on a separate independent line. That'll give others the chance to see it and respond. To post pictures you have to use a free photo-hosting site such as jpgbox.com or imgur.com. It you want to send them to me via email, I'll post them on the separate line. See PM.

Thank you Dave. I am going to Start another topic if that is what you are suggesting? Sent you some pictures via email if you would not mind uploading?;it is much appreciated.
Shane

https://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusil-Didi...brication-1919-item-10692017.html#viewer

Salut Argo,

Canon Didier-Drevet de 1919, confirmé par le vendeur, avec un chambrage en cm.

Canon d'un fusil Idéal avec un chambrage en cm.
D'après la liste de JC Mournetas, ce fusil daterait de 1924.

Thanks Fab. But I have doubts about all three guns. One of them is clearly dated 1905 per the comments There is a lot of overstamping and one wonders if barrels were being reused or stockpiled barrels were being employed in later guns.

I have a pretty good idea on dating the Didier-Drevet barrel serial numbers. Could you please forward better pictures of the barrel flats and the stampings under the barrels including the DD serial numbers. (From experience I trust only photos - not claims by a gun seller) Thanks and thanks for doing this research. Gene.

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Merci Fab. Mais j'ai des doutes sur les trois armes. L'un d'eux est clairement daté de 1905 selon les commentaires. Il y a beaucoup de surimpressions et on se demande si des canons étaient réutilisés ou si des canons stockés étaient utilisés dans des armes ultérieures.

J'ai une assez bonne idée sur la datation des numéros de série des canons Didier-Drevet. Pourriez-vous s'il vous plaît envoyer des meilleures photos des plats du canon et des estampages sous les canons, y compris les numéros de série DD. (Par expérience, je ne me fie qu'aux photos, pas aux affirmations faites par un marchand). Merci et merci pour cette recherche.

Et felicitations pour le 14 Juillet!!! 234 ans. Chez nous aujourd'hui:

Salut Argo,

Je comprends tes réticences, mais pour moi, il ne fait aucun doute que le date inscrite sur le canon est 1919. Le vendeur me l'a bien confirmé.
Pour le numéro de série, je pense à 14340 ou 14540 ou 14740.

Didier-Drevet barrel SN 14340(?) would likely have been 1919 per the chart on the first page. I think that "Skeetz's" DD 14204 dated 1918 chambered in mm was one of the first Didier-Drevet guns produced after the war.

Didier-Drevet canon SN 14340 (?) aurait probablement été 1919 selon le tableau de la première page. Je pense que le DD 14204 de "Skeetz" daté de 1918 chambré en mm fut l'un des premiers canons Didier-Drevet produit après guerre.

There are definitely DD barrels chambered in both CM and MM dated "1912." So I think this SN 14340 gun must be a sort of "outlier." Perhaps the barrels were stockpiled during the war?

Il y a certainement des canons DD chambrés en CM et MM datés de "1912". Je pense donc que SN 14340 doit être une sorte de "valeur aberrante". Peut-être que les canons ont été stockés pendant la guerre ?

Here is the extant gun chart from p. 4 on this line with DD dated serial numbers. (we need to post this on Passion la Chasse and get more data input). (Nous devons publier ceci sur Passion la Chasse et obtenir plus de données)

1852 - DD begins to serial number and date his barrels
1855 - Gold Medal for Barrels - Exposition Universelle des produits de l'Agriculture, de l'Industrie et des Beaux-Arts de Paris
1878 - ...????;. . .65 . mm; 18.6; Gun Maker: Didier Fusil; Sn: ?? (damas underlever hammergun)
1879 - . 3675;. . ??? . . ??; 18.3; Gun maker; ??. . . . . .; Sn: ??
1885 - ..4922;. . ??? . mm; 17.0. Gun Maker: Pondevaux et Jussy; gun sn: ?? (from page 3)
1887 - ..5275;. . 75. .mm; 18.4. Gun Maker: L.Chalet; gun sn: ??
1889 shift from mm to cm in Saint Etienne per Wildcattle
1900 - ..8975;. .6.5 . .cm; 18.4; Gun maker: Darne; gun sn??
1903 - ,,?????; . .6.5 . .cm; 18.4; Buford Armurier SN 5397
1904 - 11046; . .6.5 . .cm; 18.4; Gun maker: ?? gun sn:
1905 - 11604; . . ??? . . ??; 18.4; (unclear); . Gun maker: ?? gun sn: ??
1906 - 11985; . .7 . . .cm; 17.0; Gun maker: Gerest Berthon; gun sn
1906 - 12075; . .7 . . .cm; 18.4; Gun maker: ??; gun sn: ??
1907?- 12537: . .7 . . .cm; 18.4; Gun maker: ??; gun sn: ?? (from next page)
1907 - 12613?;. .7 . . .cm; 18.4; Gun Maker: Geneaux; gun sn: ; (from 4th page)
1907 - ????????;. .7.5. .cm; 19.6; Gun Maker; ??; gun sn: ??
1908 - 12740; . .6.5. .cm; 17.0; Gun Maker: ??; gun sn: ??
1910 - 13184; . .6.5. .cm; 18.4: Gun Maker: ??; gun sn: ??
1912 - 13689? . . 65. .mm; 18.4: Note the 1912 shift to mm. (page 4)
1918 - 14204; . . 65. .mm; 18.4: Gun maker: ??; gun sn: 19488; (Skeetz's gun)
..................(possibly one of the very first commercial barrel sets made by DD after Nov 11, 1918).
1919 - 14340? . .6.5 . .cm; 18.4; Gun maker; ??; gun sn:
1921 - 15034; . . 65? . mm; 18.4;
1924 - 2?871; . . 75. .mm; 19.2 (10 gauge); gun number 1080 for Didier Drevet (SIFARM) gun labeled "Excelsior."

DD looks to have been making about
-- 1852-1885: serial numbers 0 - c5000; i.e. 200 or so a year? (actually probably the normal 250 once he got his reputation going with that 1855 gold medal).
-- 1885?-1914: Serial numbers c5000 - c14,000: 250-300 barrels a year from 1885 - 1914. Didier-Drevet in an interview said he did not produce more than 300 barrels a year to insure quality.
-- 1914-1918: Sn 14xxx-14204? Sports barrel production was probably zero from 14 Aug 1914- 11 Nov 1918 for obvious reasons.

I'll repost this from above"
-- Il y a un Berthon Freres Fusil de Chasse avec Canons Gallia...Dépôt de marque 11 Jun 1912...avec chambre en cm: "Berthon Frères, fabricants d'armes a St Etienne de 1900 à 1910. Successeurs de la Maison Martin Gerest. Dépôt de deux marques de fabrique le 26 avril 1912 pour platine "Perfecta"et une autre. Deux autres dépôts le 11 juin 1912 pour canons "Gallia" et carabine "La Lorraine". Devient en 1922 Laspoussas-Berthon & Cie, puis Laspoussas & Driol en 1923. L'entreprise a existé jusqu'en 1950." Donc, la conclusion était le changement était après ce date. Mais bien sur, il est possible que il y avait des "dérapage."

(There was a Berthon Freres Shotgun with "Gallia" barrels...trademarked on 11 Jun 1912, with chambers in cm...."Berthon Freres gun makers in Saint-Etienne from 1900 to 1910: Successors to Martin-Gerest. Patent two trademarks on 26 April 12012 for the side-lock "Perfecgta" and another. Two other trademarks the 11 June 1912 for "Gallia" barrels and for the rifle "La Lorraine." It became in 1922 Laspoussas-Berthon & Cie, then Laspoussas & Diol in 1923. The company existed until 1950." Thus, the conclusion was that the changeover was after that date (11 Jun 1912). But of course it's possible that there was some "slippage.")