doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com OT: "The War" series by Ken Burns on Public TV

I have seen no discussion on this series, I guess it is a bit off topic. BUT, this series is absolutely so outstanding I think it deserves some discussion. It concluded the seven parts series last evening, there will be repeats. This is definitely a MUST WATCH program. It depicts the war from the viewpoint of the people of four different US towns, and the people that lived there, including those who served and those who stayed behind. I have been a student of WWII since I was a child. It seems I have strange "connection" with the war, although I was only a child at that time. I had relatives in the war, and perhaps that's my draw. They showed film of liberating many camps in Europe near the end of the war that I had never seen before. Horrifying! Some of the worst I have seen. All in all this show deserves whatever type of award is given for public tv documenteries. Excellent.

Agree wholehearedly! I caught it last night and stayed up well past my normal bedtime to watch it thru its conclusion. Absolutely a first-rate production!

I shoot occasionally with a buddy that was in the Phillipines during the war. He was decorated for valor while there and was invited to have dinner with McArthur.I have an even greater respect for him after watching that series. My deepest thanks to all our GI's then and now.

I had two friends that were Marines in the Pacific landings and fighting and the few terrible stories that they would tell were depicted accurately in the Series. My cousin was a Ship Captain sitting offshore during the battle for Okinawa and his stories were also illuminated by the series. I believe 10,000 sailors alone were casualties off of Okinawa.

If I remember correctly the quote from the fabulous series "Victory At Sea", one in seven naval casualties (US) in World War II were suffered in the battle for Okinawa. Ask the men who fought at Guadalcanal, Pelilu, Angaur, Iwo Jima, Okinawa, and a thousand other places in the Pacifac theater, whether they think that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were justifiable!!!!

Post deleted by Ron Vella

I'm leery of WWII films ever since 'Saving Private Ryan' which had great reviews and to this day I can't understand why anyone would think that movie was anything but garbage.

GregSY, in no way is this series to be considered a "WWII Film." True, it does contain quite a lot of archival footage in the documentary, but a very large portion of it is interviews with either the participants or the folks who stayed behind. There is not a single "actor" in the series. It's built around the stories of those who served and those who waited for them back home.

Greg, I'm wondering why you had such a low opinion of SPR. Of course it is fiction and there is some poetic license but many of the events portrayed happened in similiar ways. The story is based on the Sullivan brothers of Iowa with names and places changed. I've seen it in the company of WWII paratrooper vets and they enjoyed it and seemed to think it had the "feel" of being there for the most part.

Chief, I agree, it was a excellent series. If anyone has not seen it, set your tivo for the repeats!

RE; Saving Private Ryan

The WW2 Vets that I have talked with thought it was very realistic, particularly a friend of mine who was in the Battle of the Bulge and saw a lot of action. Included was a man that was in the Gen Patton group

I wholeheartedly agree with the previous posters and thought it was extremely well done as is usual for his documentaries.

It grieves me to think that my generation is the last to be personally acquainted with the fathers, uncles, moms, and aunts of this "Greatest Generation" who are now leaving us at the rate of over 1000 per day...to know who they really are...to know their first hand stories...to know their real personalities.

It grieves me because the following generations will think of the hero's of WWII the same as I think of my grandfather who served in the front lines of WWI. I've heard the stories of his service from my parents, but it is not the same...I did not really know him.

Hopefully, documentaries such as Ken Burns recent effort will allow future generations to know and understand a little better what we know and love about those our parents age who served both on the home front and overseas in WWII.

May God Bless Them All...each and every one.

Burns did a good job. Often American-made documentaries on the war focus more tightly on the U.S. role---which is fair and praiseworthy---but Burns handled the Allied effort skilfully, including the Canadians at Juno penetrating seven miles on D-Day led by the North Shore Regiment of neighbouring New Brunswick. Burns has few peers in the documentary field.

KB, your right, we don't hear enough about the other Allied forces. I thought it was a very good documentary. You know, these shows really are just shows, unless you KNOW and have talked to someone who has been in these conflicts and wars. Last Friday in Lima, Ohio, we buried a cousins son,with full military honors, who was killed by an IED while driving his tank in Iraq. It places a whole new meaning to the tragedies of war. Not only for the soldier, but the silient victims of war here at home. I have a son in-law in the Marines, who is on a mission right now in Iraq. You hold your breath, when the phone rings late at night.Not really a document about war, but the tragedies of those in fighting it. http://www.limaohio.com/video/index.php?bcpid=992398979&bclid=1028788754&bctid=1213840952

It was well done and about time that the efforts and sacrafices of these men and ladies get our thanks and respect. It took guts and resolve to do what they did. Today TV would make the war a vastly different thing to fight. Had they had todays TV coverage and press there would be no synagogues left in the Old World. That scares me for the future.

My father never laments the use of the bomb. He was about to go ashore in the final invasion. He had been island hopping across the Pacific for the entire war. Few know that the military ordered half a million body bags in anticipation of the losses that the invasion would result in invading Japan.

My only regret is that the monument to the WWII vets was delayed for decades. Many who served died before their sacrifices were honored. I thank my father and father in law every Veterans Day, and Memorial day for their service. Without them and other like them we would by typing in another world and maybe in another language.

I'm in total agreement on "Saving Private Ryan". It was pure Hollywood crap and very anti-war, in its message. The basic concept that a group of clowns could just wander around over the countryside and find Ryan was idiotic enough, the way they sat around on their butts the day of the tank attack, waiting until the last minute to send the cowardly weasel out to give everyone ammo was again typical HC(Hollywood Crap). Just like in a western, where everyone sits on their butts until the attackers ride into town and then, THEN cycle their lever action rifles, like they wouldn't have them loaded and ready, knowing that a gunfight was coming???
Of course, the very sensitive MILITARY EXPERT Tom Hanks was the perfect metro-sexual to play a military leader, questioning everything, including himself. Hanks is a great actor, but the movie was pure crap. Even if the story was loosely based on a real situation, crap is still crap. Wanna know what I really think?

That's funny. I always thought a squad size element with an LRP mission to find the last of the Ryans would be more than happy to take on bunker clearing projects rather than sticking to business. This is what happens when you don't send Navahoes. Black Hawk Down was similar crap. Different war but Bridges at Toko-Ri is about as good as they come in the fictional recreation dept. Maybe Mr. Roberts also. In Harm's Way was a damn sight better than The Green Berets. Maybe the "greatest generation" of film makers also? Total mobilization on the home front is one of the major themes of Burns' new documentary. Needed saying.

jack

JL, your reply shows a thumbs down to my topic of "The War" series by Ken Burns. Is that what you intended? The topic is not about Saving private Ryan, which is a movie. The series to which I refer is not a movie. Have you seen it?

I saw nearly the entire The War series and will buy the dvd's as I think everyone should see it, especially our children and grandchildren. I grew up between Vietnam and the Gulf War and although I was in the Naval Reserve never went to war. That series shows what war really is like; difficult, uncomfortable, tough, dangerous and very frightening.

One thing I noted in the series is that one of the guys said that everyone went to war because, "they had to". Indeed, there was a snowball effect of men that volunteered, and when the entire society is involved it is hard not to get engulfed in the movement. This contrasts with our soldiers today that serve in Iraq. They are volunteers that don't have to be there. Put into perspective, it is evidence how brave and committed our military is today and how they more closely reach the definition of "heroes".

I thought Ken Burns' series lived up to the high quality one has come to expect from him!

I watched all 7 episodes, and felt priviledged to sit through Monday's episode with my folks. My dad was on an ammo ship in the Pacific Theater, and didn't really have much to say. Probably because my mom had a running commentary about the various people they grew up with in small town Idaho who served in the various battles, those that didn't make it and those that did.

She mentioned that my dad's mother was a nervous wreck for 4 years with three sons in various branches of the military, and never did know that her youngest(my father)was on an ammo ship.

I have a very deep appreciation for the sacrifices "The Greatest Generation" made, watching it with parents who lived it and commented freely about (at least one)their rememberences only deepened that appreciation.

I just don't remember enough about Saving Ryan anymore. I do recall that Tom Hanks (whom I can't stand anyway) was terribly miscast. It's hard to believe "Constantly Flabbergasted Howdy Doody" in any sort of gritty role.

I also seem to recall despite horrible conditions every star in the movie maintained perfect hygiene and sparkling white teeth.

Keep in mind Steven Spielberg directed it - and he would be glad, with all of his liberal Hollywood pals, to see every gun you own taken away.

My father served during WWII with the 15th Air Force as the radio operator on a B-17. They were often supported during their missions by the 332 Fighter Group, which was staffed by pilots from Tuskegee. Dad talked about the service, but rarely about the war.

A good friend of his was one of the survivors of the Bataan Death March. He could never forgive the Japanese for his war time experiences. He also had an intense dislike for turnips. Seems that was only source of food for years while he was held captive.

One summer evening, my grandfather, a WWI vet, was sitting on the front porch. A few neighbors came by and he offered them a beer. Soon they began to talk about their war experiences. It turned out that these families had been in the death camps. They were sent there after the fall of Poland. I was very young and just sat and listened for hours.

Ken Burns did a marvelous job. I did not get to see every segment, but have every intention of purchasing the DVDs.

Pete

My "thumbs down" was aimed at Saving Private Ryan, not the series you talked about. I have not seen that but would like to. Will it be shown again and where should I look it? Sorry for the confusion. I love good war movies and would like to see "the War".
Thank you,

THE WAR by Ken Burns is indeed an important work, but it should inspire even more documentation of this historic event. Perhaps not for television, but as noted at the end of the series, 1000 veterans of that war presently die each day. If you know one of them talk to him or her and learn their stories. My father served in the artilleray in a machinegun group and was taken prisoner and held for 27 months. His weight dropped from 165Lbs to 120lbs and he nearly died with pneumonia, but for his recovery in a military hospital after his release. He and other men were able to escape on two occasions, but were recaptured. Along with bullets and bombs he suffered lice, worm infested food, starvation and cold, but excuses the latter with "the germans were losing the war". He relates stories of Arabs offering bread in the desert, Russian soldiers beating guard dogs to death with their boots and boredom that allowed him time to fashion a crystal for his watch using a pocket knife with a broken blade and a piece of downed airplane windsheild(I have that watch). At 90 years of age he still has nightmares on occasion, but knowing him as I do, I am aware that, deep down, he believes the war was the most important part of his life and nothing else compares.

The Ken Burns series started again this evening.

"It is well that war is so terrible, lest we become too fond of it" R.E. LEE

I think "The Longest Day", "A Bridge Too Far", "The Battle of Britain", "Stalingrad",..... are much better, but they were not Stevie Spielberg films.
Sorry I missed it, but like The Civil War Series I'm sure it was excellent.

Especially the Russians; who after all did most of the fighting and dying and killed most of the enemy. A fact not frequently mentioned.

Regards
Eug

With all due respect for the rest of the Allies, most of the fighting and dying in Europe was between the Russians and Germans.

For an eye opening perspective on the German/Russian front read "The Forgotton Soldier".

Jeff

I worked for a few years with an 'old guy' in the early 1990's who was a draftsman. He was a small guy and short, probably 5'4" at best.

I was gone from that company by the late 90's and I heard he died around 2000. What surprised me was that his obituary mentioned he had served in WWII (I knew that much) and had been a highly decorated airman - a ball turret gunner no less, with a number of downed enemy aircraft to his credit. Talk about a job with a low life expectancy. I wish I had known while he was still alive, but the whole time I knew him he never mentioned it.

The experiences of those interviewed in The War opened up perspectives not seen in other films about WWII. One striking point comes through in the narrator's discussion of Japan's plans to defend against invasion. The expected toll makes the decision to use the atom bomb appear as unavoidable common sense.

Pardon my following up the digression on Saving Private Ryan. I think it's a great film despite the story line flaws. A subtext plays out in the character of the sniveling journalist. This guy mistakenly puts on a German helmet when he's roped into going out with the platoon. He runs back and forth between American and German positions for shelter when caught up in his first combat. He's paralyzed with weeping weakness while the Jewish soldier struggles against the Superman caricature.

But eventually he recognizes evil embodied in the German who takes pleasure in killing Hanks' character after earlier being released from capture. Hanks' character dies to show us the journalist's change from fearful non-combatant to determined righteous killer. Spielberg's message in SPR is pro-war: despite the horror splashed in our faces in the D-Day scenes, the war was necessary to put an end to even greater horror. This movie and Schindler's List are like bookends.

Jeff:

Are you related to Captain Jeff Mull serving in Afghanistan?

The late father of the co-worker setting adjacent to me was a turret gunner on one of the bombers in WWII. He explained that his father rarely spoke of the war and never with any detail. Seeing the interview with the turret gunner on the series really brought home what his dad had gone through.

Until he retired about 15 years ago, I worked with a B-17 gunner who was shot down over France and was hidden by residents of a small village for a few months until he was safely able to connect with advancing U.S. troops. A few years ago the villagers wanted to do something in appreciation of U.S. sacrifices in the liberation of Europe, and they arranged for Don an expense paid trip to visit for a commemorative event.

None of his former fellow employees knew any details of Don's WWII service until seeing this trip covered in a St.Paul newspaper article. The visit was described as full of joy, as one might imagine. The day after the article appeared, Don died of a heart attack while walking with his son up a lane to the farmhouse of one of the families that sheltered him.

Don's family expressed only happiness that he was able to renew his friendship with these French villagers and represent all U.S. veterans in hearing their gratitude.

I have returned to Normandy and the Netherlands several times with foundations whose mission is to remember, honor and serve the veterans of WWII and especially the men who participated in the airborne operations in all theaters. Each time we took a 7-8 veteran contingent and their wives. I feel so privileged to have been able to sit in a group of these guys and listen to them speak freely about their experiences and then travel with them to the actual locations where the events took place. Those are truly some of the most special times in my life.

I'll put in a shameless plug for these organizations. They all have essentially the same mission with different emphasis. They can always use ground support personnel and folks to help get the vets and wives around to the different events and, of course, monetary support. Me......I'm too old and fat to jump anymore but not to help out. Check out these web sites. Anything we can do to insure the memory of the sacrifice and heroism remains and that these gentlemen are honored in their twilight years is just as important as the great films made by Burns and Spielberg.

http://www.libertyjumpteam.org/

http://www.goldenwingsparachuteteam.com/

http://www.wwiiadt.com/

There is a new one out there titled In Deadly Combat A German Soldier's Memoir of the Eastern Front. Some Soviet foot soldier also has one out there, but I can't recall it's title.

I can't remember the title of the Russian book either but from reviews in distinguished periodicals it's as close as it gets to the real thing. The Eastern Front battles were unparalleled in scale and ferocity in modern times.

One dissenting vote: I thought Ken Burns' "The War" was disappointing. It plowed the same old ground umpteen WWII docs have done (and done better) - even the History Channel has done better.

Burns' report on the Battle of Midway was pathetically sparse. His heavy emphasis on internment of Japanese Americans seemed excessively PC. I thought his gimmick of the four towns was forced, just an attempt to be different without making a real difference. He focused more on feelings than on facts, did some predictable 'home front' stuff, and provided little in the way of new information or better understanding.

IMHO, Ken Burns' superb job on the Civil War made his reputation, and he has never quite reached that level since. I felt "The War" fell far short of the PBS hype.

I have been trying to avoid this, but I have to chime in with jack. I only watched about half the shows, because I really thought it was poor. My view might have been colored by all the appearances Ken Burns made preceding the show in which he made a big deal of the fact that he tried to make a series with as negative a view as possible and refused to glorify the war. His view was that the war was remembered as a "bloodless war" due to all the "greatest generation" shows, and he wanted to set the record straight. His stated goal for the series was to show how terrible war (in the generic sense) really is. He stated that there had been more than enough war documentaries, but he decided to make this one to set the record straight.

I think he is totally out of touch with the general feeling in America on this issue. I don't believe anybody views this as a bloodless war. Just see the four pages of posts above for proof. However, most of the people I know who went through it did it gladly, and say they would have done it again, even those who came back traumatized. My dad spent over four years overseas in Iran in a small, strange group called the Persian Gulf Command which has been the subject of several specials and books in the last few years. For him, it was both the most trying time in his life and also the most defining. I personally believe that if any group of people fighting any war deserve to be glorified, it is the veterans of WWII.

I thought the civil war series was likely the best series ever produced by PBS. I also liked the jazz series. While I found the footage in the WWII series interesting, I found it sadly lacking as a documentary. I too thought the four town approach was very limiting. I thought the flow was very disjointed, with too much about some issues and too little about others. Most importantly, I thought it was a very well concealed PC piece aimed at our current foreign policies. I don't think I am alone in this view. The Wall Street Journal even ran a very negative review along these same lines.

If you want the POV of both winners and losers, you can't beat the films Flags of Our Fathers and Letters From Iwo Jima. Or if you want the sad old situation of the universal soldier, there's Remarque's All Quiet on the Western Front (again, different war). Although I agree that long stretches of The War are pretty lackluster, taking the American towns and cities as an organizing principle did reveal that WWII changed the face of the U.S. as well as the face of Europe. No water-filled craters, no UXBs, no Dresdens and no Nagasakis but still changed forever by the migration to centers of war industry. With the exception of the dry irony of Shelby Foote, I found The Civil War to also be pretty much a one-trick pony with the lachrymose fiddle theme and all the letters edged in black. Incidentally fellers, there was anti-war before there was politically correct. How about Grand Illusion?

jack

I really don't know anyone who is not "antiwar"............especially anyone who has spent time as a soldier. Even necessary wars are not fun to fight and who would want to be labeled prowar anyway.

What a lot of great discussion. I found the series some what of a re-hash of old video clips I had seen before, but the personalization of it from all sides in specific communities was really the point. It was great and just what you'd expect from Burns. It was just super for me, and brought back old memories of my adolescent wonderment at the roles of my father and his friends from the little North Dakota community in which I grew up. WWII was fresh still when I was in grade school in the 50's. Dad, my hero, was a glider pilot. His cousin was married to a Bataan Death March survivor (I began to understand him better after the time he found my brothers and I had acquired a motorcycle in 1964. He had been excited about it but once he saw it was Japanese he shrunk from it speechless, downright physically ill. I'll never forget the look on his face.) The neighbor was a Bronze Star-winning tank driver, some had been in the Pacific with dirty fighting, my friend's mother was a Belgian war bride, the guy who ran the gas station was a DFC winning gunner in B-17's who could never quite drink it all away, my friend in college - his dad flew the Polesti raids, Dad's partner in his aerial crop spraying business was a P-39 and P-38 pilot in the Pacific, the guy in the next town flew B-17's and never had the heart to fly again, Dad's friend, for whom I worked, was in the Navy, and one of the two NoDaks Pearl Harbor survivors. There were a thousand local stories, and somehow, though no one really seemed to talk directly about it, we all heard plenty. (It was so different with the local Korean war vets, and later with my generation of Vietnam Vets, yet those people went through the same hell, but with different public support.) I heard a lot about my Dad's adventures from my uncle. That's how it went. Everybody, and I'm not talking only about soldiers, but the parents and siblings - everybody, contributed some way and suffered some hardship, some more than others. Most of the guys lost their youth years, yet many got experiences and education they otherwise wouldn't have, and it changed them forever, which only became clear to some of us later, when we looked at our veterans as regular human survivors of the odds, as opposed to the heroes we wanted as kids. Later in the real working world I found myself side-by-side (SxS!) in the research department of a major corporation with a simple straightforward guy who wore a black bow-tie every day, who happened to relate one day, after he heard me talk about my flying, that he had been a B-29 instructor pilot He wangled himself a combat assignment finally, and arrived at Tinian the day before Tibbets flew out to Hiroshima. You'd never have guessed it. It goes on and on.....regular US citizens in a nation-defining moment. There were others....One co-worker at the same company was a Jewish Pole (his family kept the Jewish part secret somehow) born in a work camp in Russia (fortuantely Russia rather than Germany) in 1940 and brought back by the Russians to re-populate Poland in 1946. One of the lucky ones. I eventually met both his parents, who, like he and his wife, finally emigrated here in the mid 70's, with God knows what kind of influence.

The series was great. PeteM's reaction/experience seemed much like my own. Thanks PeteM. Sorry for the ramble, but the point is history was all around us as we baby-boomers grew up. Ken Burns didn't intend to cover everything and no one could. He does a marvelous job of making us see and understand the human condition. I don't want our kids to forget what was done, what is still around them, and what was necessary all these years ago, and even since then, regardless of how bad some actions have turned out. This is a great country. I have traveled internationally a lot for work in the last 25 years, and the USA is really different -- not perfect, but honestly quite a much preferred place by almost all on earth who experience it. I hope we can keep it that way. War isn't the way, but we simply have to recognize our heritage and what it means to be a nation -- that some things are worth the sacrifice. Frankly, it would be very difficult for most Americans to tolerate the lifestyle available to the average person in any other place. Best Wishes.

Nobody is pro-war - but many people understand, as adults, that sometimes wars are necessary.

I guess that famous movie line of Georgie Patton's was just showbiz?

jack

And Bob, I don't think you've met the sort of lifer for whom war means fast promotion.

jack

I'm a retired US Army officer Jack........in over 27 years of active duty I've met 'em all! 99.99% are outstanding young men and women dedicated to the service of their fellow citizens and their way of life. War always accelerates promotion for everyone.

Jack, you should take that "lifer" word and park it in the same trash can as the N word before you say it front of the wrong guy. That was a term the drug abusers coined to denigrate the career NCOs not in favor of their recreational stupor - the very NCOs who would keep them alive in a scrape. Very offensive!!

"...regular US citizens in a nation-defining moment."

I think that's what Burns was getting at: millions of ordinary men and women from rural towns and villages and city neighbourhoods who saw their duty and did it.

His civil war and jazz series were better and easier to make. The Second World War was a different beast altogether in scale and complexity."

Ken Burns' Civil War and Jazz TV documentary series were easy to make because no one else had done them yet; they were bright, new, and stood alone. "The War" has to stand against half a century of WWII documentaries, many of which have been superb. By comparison, "The War" has little new to offer, beyond some PC padding.

Agree, jack, but could you be specific about the PC padding (other than dedication and sacrifice), please?

Well, Jerry, I'm sorry for pushing your buttons. I was an army NCO and although I didn't "keep them alive in a scrape" with superior bravery and warcraft, I kept a number of scag freaks awake long enuf to get them to detox. As to my choice of the offensive word, I admit to being influenced by the army and the war I was in--including its slang. I suspect that the greatest generation also experienced a good deal of friction between regulars and the floodtide of draftees. I will hide the word away for your sake. I'm also sorry that the military life I had to live isn't up to your standards.

jack

In an interview with the WSJ, Burns stated that PBS required him to go back and put additional material into "The War" about Hispanics and American Indians. IMHO, the series also dwells overlong on the Japanese-Americans and the problematic role of African-Americans. The selection of Luverne, Waterbury, Sacramento and Mobile is as geographically PC as the cornball Hollywood infantry squad that always has to have a Brooklyn wise guy, a straight-shoootin' hillbilly, an innocent Midwest farm boy, an angry black man, etc.

In effect, Burns' "The War" reflects America's ethnic and social issues of today, not the reality of 1941-45.

Thanks, jack. His series was of our time and context, then, far different from the time and temperament of the years at war.

I guess no harm done if Burns added something to general knowledge that had been left out of the contributions of minorities.

No harm done? Exaggerating the contributions of minorities may be "good" social work, but it's bad history.

Hollywood and PBS have done stories galore about the Japanese-American internment, about the fighting 442nd, about the Tuskegee airmen, about the Codetalkers. And no one has denied or minimized their contributions - quite the opposite. Burns' series added nothing but repetition to their stories.

It might be politically incorrect, but the overwhelming burden of America's fighting and dying in WWII was carried by white males. Rewriting history to mollify today's ethnic pressure groups is intellectually dishonest and morally repugnant.

"Homogenous" elements of the state militia type circa Civil War or the more recent Guard and Reserves which also mobilize as a unit (athough MOS requirements may mean reassignment) are the reason for saving "Pvt. Ryan" or giving some thought to not killing another family of sea-going Sullivans, or whatever. Come full circle on this one. Homogenous was the least offensive euphemistic adjective I could think of for everyone you knew in high school. The genius of the Draft Act of '68 was that it was administered relatively consistently and fairly as a lottery and gave everyone (however non-homogenized)a chance to do their duty. It goes without saying that the fleas come with the dog.

grunt (another bit of slang which I have chosen to take as a compliment)

I had several thoughts about "The War." It dramatically brought home to me the differences in quality of leadership and preparation between then and now. If our generals today performed like the generals of WWII we'd be clamoring for them to be in jail. Also, the general lack of information allowed to the civilians of then would in no way be tolerated now (unless it was a democrat president). The level of war planning, soldier prepartion and training, etc. of today is incredible compared to WWII(in spite of all the bitching about our President, the Sec of Defense, Pentagon and in-theatre leadership). Literally thousands of people lost their lives in training exercises on our own East coast simply preparing for the D-Day invasion let only the additional thousands involved in the actual invasion in Normandy. The loss of thousands on Pelelieu when it wasn't even strategically important borders on criminal. I have modified downward my view of FDR, Eisenhower, MacArthur and others while increasing my respect for Patton as a result of watching the show.

Also, was somewhat outraged by Burns' highlighting apparent war crimes in WWII in his stated effort to show the "worst" of war.

History is always being rewritten, jack, and I see nothing repugnant or intellectually dishonest in mentioning those who served even if the majority was white in a majority-white nation.

Far better to give tribute to those who served whatever their background than to be politically correct and intellectually dishonest by not mentioning those who didn't want the war and equivocated.

That social history, too. Burns cut a thin slice of the war, small enough to be manageable and large enough to be significant. If he erred by including again the celebrated minorities, better respect for them than remorse.

I am reluctant to get involved in this discussion of PC vs. actual history, but I do think some important things are being overlooked.

First, my credentials. I am a veteran of WWII, 83 years old; spent 7 mos. in combat in France and Germany prior to VE Day, May 8, 1945, and another 10 mos. in the Army of Occupation in Germany after the war ended. For most of that time, I was fully expecting to be sent to Japan, but was saved by the A-bomb.

I was a demolition specialist in the 14th Armored Division, 125th Armored Engineer Batallion, 3rd Army (Patton) from the time we crossed the Rhine until the War ended. We were not in the Battle of the Bulge, but just south of that epic battle in Alsace. We were,however, involved in Operation Nordwind, Hitler's counterattack to the south after the Bulge had failed. We saw extensive fighting in the two little towns of Hatten and Rittershofen, which were literally wiped off the map. A few weeks later, we captured the huge POW camp (130,000 prisoners, if memory serves me right) at Moosburg, which served as the model for the movie "Stalag XVII." And at the end of the war, units from our Division took part in the liberation of the first Nazi concentration camp at Dachau, just a few miles from Munich.

I must say that I approve of Ken Burns' portrayal of war. The constant sense of unreality and fear. Of course, he is using mostly actual footage from the War, but his narrative and exceptional editing has resulted in conveying the actual taste and feel of combat better than any other production I have ever seen. I think he can be forgiven a few extra PC commentaries. They are not overdone; they are based on history.

I must agree with King Brown, who said "better respect for them than remorse."

Bill

Bill, I deeply appreciate your addition to this thread. I am the son of a WW II veteran, China Burma Theater - B25's, and I served 29 years in the U.S. Army. I thought Ken did a masterful job and I am glad to hear someone who really was of that generation comment on it.

In Dec of 99, I was loving life as the Assistant Division Commander (Maneuver) of the 4th Infantry Division. Just before Christmas, I received a call from an old mentor, Rick Shinseki, who was Chief of Staff of the U.S. Army, asking me to come to Washington to act as his Chief of Legislative Liaison. He is a truly remarkable figure, which history will treat well. At the time he was engaged in a bitter struggle with a new SECDEF who was determined to draw down an Army which was no longer "relevant" in the post cold war era.....a SECDEF who was convinced that SPECOPS and "Shock and awe" would win all future wars. Shinseki was determined to preserve a ten division force and I was privileged to play a small role in that effort on Capitol Hill.

Rumsfeld's strategy was to ridicule and discredit Shinseki - an effort which failed largely because of what Shinseki represented and the point of this digression. A Japanese American, Shinseki was born to a family under local detention. He earned a commission, and eventually two purple hearts and three bronze stars with V devices in Vietnam. His mentor was a man by the name of Daniel Inouye. Senator Inouye lost his arm and gained a medal of honor during WWII. Those of you who saw the Burns series, saw him. He is every bit as remarkable an American citizen as Shinseki. The environment which produced such men needs to be remembered. I deeply resent the notion that it is somehow politicaly correct to do so.

And though I did not serve at Normandy or Mogadishu, I have at least been shot at, and I have been responsible for the deaths of quite a few of my country's foes. I do know four of the Delta operators and Rangers that responded to that downed Black Hawk. From a professional perspective, it is pretty well done - which is why both Delta and the Army supported the filming. My colleagues who were there, universally agree. As for as SPR, how could anyone not be moved by that movie? Other than a couple of nits regarding the weapons and tactics, this is a superb study of small unit combat. The Army leadership, all combat veterans, presented Spielberg with an award of recognition when the film was released.

History is, by its very nature, the interpretation of events through the prism of the time in which it is written. It is also different as viewed through the prism of those experiencing it. For instance, I have yet to read a "correct" account of the Battle of Medinah Ridge - at least as how I experienced it. These are not issues of Political Correctness, but rather, issues of perspective.

Great thread, however off topic.

Bill and Joe - Thanks for telling us your views. My father-in-law is another 80+ year old veteran of WWII who thought Burns did a great job. He didn't complain a bit that Leyte Gulf -- where he saw most of his action -- got barely a sentence of mention. The credibility you and Bill bring to this discussion adds welcome heart and makes it easy to forget the niggling of some who seem to award themselves a big badge of honor for being unimpressed.

Jay Gramith

Is this discussion about our opinions of a documentary series, or our opinions of each others' opinions?

Jay, this may bring a smile to your father-in-law:

A few years ago yarning here in the woods about the navy in the Second World War, to spice things up I asked two friends, a RN Second Sea Lord and a RCN CAG fighter pilot, at what point did they realize that the Royal Navy had slipped to second place in power and prowess on the seas.

"Oh, I don't know if we ever did," said the knighted sailor whose responsibilities after the war included commandant of Dartmouth naval school. He was all you'd expect of a man of his responsibilities, with a well-tuned sense of humor, engagingly loaded with all the tricks of wardroom debate.

C'mon, I said, there's no one under the deck, no one to hear you. There must have been one battle, maybe in the South Pacific with the Americans, that said a page had turned in naval warfare: Crossing Nelson's T, Midway, Leyte Gulf. "Leyte Gulf," he said, with a wonderful smile, happy to give credit where it was due.

Thank you King, you're right, he will enjoy hearing this opinion about Leyte Gulf.


Valid point Jack, I regret the snide personal jab.

I agree with those who thought The War dragged a little at times, the second episode in particular. And yes, hardships and contributions of minorities have been covered before, but I still can't see harm or exaggeration in Burns' portrayal ... this stuff happened. I knew almost nothing about Japanese-Americans serving in WWII, and didn't know the details of Sen. Inouye's heroism, or the tardy Medal of Honor. I don't see anything PC about following people from various geographic regions as a device to portray the home front.

Again about Saving Private Ryan ... I've seen it just once, and consider it among the few finest films I've seen. The story line -- which raises an apparent question about the morality and politics of sacrificing a platoon to save a single soldier -- is also a framework for Spielberg to show through his characters the need to endure hideous, mind-numbing sacrifices of war to destroy a greater evil. Hanks was perfectly cast for his character's generous and fatally mistaken decision to release the captured German. His character is a compassionate American Everyman in a world where compassion can be naive weakness, and the consequences of failing to recognize and relentlessly destroy evil are fatal.

I didn't really mean that say SPR is pro-war -- just meant that it makes a compelling case that despite the awful price, some wars are necessary.

The series doesn't reflect nor does it emphasize all the trouble the Allied army had trying to engage what probably was the greatest army on earth, the German Army. The British trying to secure a city Caen that was supposed to be taken a few days after D-Day that wasn't secured until well into July and August!!! Watch "As trumpets fade" a movie about the grinding up of the 28th Infantry Division called after that battle "The Bloody Bucket" that's a perspective on the war in Europe few see or want to hear!
All the best

No problem, Jay.

All in all, 'The War' was a pretty good documentary. But it might better have been called 'America's War,' as it was totally US-centric and gave short shrift to our allies who actually bore the brunt of it.

My main objection to 'The War' is the fact that PBS allowed political organizations to preview the 'documentary' and force revisions in it. The result is 'The War' as we in 2007 would like it to have been, rather than 'The War' as it was in 1941-45.

Guess I can't get comfortable with race advocates dictating some of the 'history' being presented to Americans. Rewriting history to spotlight the exceptions simply conceals the ugly fact that racism was rampant - and accepted - at that time, and minorities were largely relegated to supporting roles. How can we learn from history when the lessons are being erased?

Correction - I talked to my father, who was also in WWII, and he told me the guy I mentioned before was not a ball turret gunner but rather a tailgunner in a B-29. He had 37 missions to his credit.

As for the PC stuff in Ken Burns' documentary, it can't be as bad as the way they have ruined the Liberty Bell display in Philadelphia. About 50% of the display makes damn sure we all know about slavery.

I bought couple today: Tank Rider Into the Reich with the Red Army by Evgeni Bessonov and Red Partisan The memoir of a Soviet Resistance Fighter on the Easter Front by Nikolai I. Obryna'ba.

The series is good for what it is but why doesn't it explain why our infantry squads had to redo their training all the way back from AIT when they went up against the German infantry??? Two men on point find and pin the enemy down while two sets of three, I believe, circled and flanked the enemy. Two men in reserve just in case. Well on the battle field that didn't happen the Germans would pin down whole squads with their firepower incorporated into their infantry squads. The Allies had to go to platoons or better to deal with the firepower of the German infantry squad!! No better form of flattery when every major army today models their infantry squad after the WWII German infantry squad!!!
All the best