doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com F.P. Geerinckx a Paris

Has anyone ever heard of a maker of this name? I just bought at auction what looks like a pretty decent grade boxlock by him.

Yup, that's the shotgun. I didn't really need another shotgun, but how could I turn down the price?

NICE
65 mm chambers
Here are some proof marks
https://www.shotguns.se/html/france.html

Looks like the barrel dents can be easily restored.

Anybody know a good dent-removing gunsmith?

Nice gun for the price. I like the "papers". Broken forend tip, barrel dent and removed front sling swivel are all repairable, and worth it to do so I would think...Geo

The front swivel looks to have been ground off????

It has the proverbial V-C Stop.

Canons Gallia was a marque of Berthon Fr�res....

>>"Berthon Freres" was active from 1893 to 1922.
Their catalog included the "Helice-elite" (sic) brand and the "Gallia" brand.
"Gallia" is of course a play on the Latin name for what France was way back...
The preceding structure was "Martin Gerest" and the following one was "Laspoussas Berthon" followed in '23 by "Laspoussas & Driol". The "Berthon freres" brand could have survived until the 1950s...<<

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubb...true#Post325648

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

>>F.P. Geerinckx Sr de Gauvain � Paris<<

Seems there were several generations???

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Another so marked of apparent Belgian origin but unfortunately no proof marks shown
https://www.icollector.com/Engraved-F-P-...otgun_i17958981

F.P Geerinckx of Paris is the retailer - it was made in Saint Etienne.


Here are the proof marks:

-- Chambers marked in CM (6.5)...i.e. built after 1889 but before mid 1912; See this line:
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=484326
-- It is proofed for PT so after 1900 but before 1912;
-- It's Berthon Freres so after late 1910. That pretty well nails the date of manufacture down between 1911-1912.


1). Martin-Gerest was a famous gun maker in Saint Etienne from the 1860�s to 1900 when he retired. He was highly regarded in the city and among other things he edited the French gun magazine �Bulletin Mensuelle de L�Armurerie Francaise�. Here is an article in the British press on his retirement:


2). his firm was bought by the Berthon brothers in 1900, who had worked for him. They then made guns under the name of Gerest-Berthon. Here is a sample of a bill of sale/label from Gerest Berthon. You�ll see various medals won by the firm at industrial expositions which were very popular from from the Crystal Palace exposition in London in 1851 right up to the World�s fair in New York, etc. in the 1960�s. The Grans Prix and gold medal for Paris 1900 was actually won by M. Gerest before he retired.


3). The Berthon brothers took out several patents in the 1900-1922 period. In 1922 they sold out to Laspoussas, which became Laspoussas, Driol & Cie in 1923. Here is a sample of a testament for a worker who worked for them from March 1938 to October 1938, dated 21 October 1938. You�ll note in the lower left corner �fabricants concessionaires du Didier Fusil avec Canon Plume Eureka"

Please explain "V-C stop."

Verney-Carron. In the 1890's he invented a top lever closing system that had four locks and never needed to be adjusted. He patented it under several names for 30 years. It has a stop on the left side of the top lever...no threaded nut on the top of the lever because he inverted it. A lot of French firms copied it for years...or they put "Helice" on their top levers hoping that the V-C reputation would leak onto their guns.

It's been discussed here for years - See these lines:
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=561538
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=514455&page=all
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=480839
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=541475

This gun however, does not use the V-C patent; It's a Scott Spindle: see the slot in the top lever:

Nice sleuthing there Argo. To whom does the Rampant Lion belong that is seen on the bottom portion of the flats?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I generally think of myself as a well-informed gun enthusiast, but ask a question here, and voil�! you get guys coming along who know all about "Verney-Carron Stops" and "Scott Spindles" and who can come up with the build date for some random French double. I'll admit it: I'm impressed.

Scott Spindle: http://www.hallowellco.com/scott%20spindle.htm

I've seen that rampant lion before....had an image in my Saint Etienne database but unfortunately I forgot to label it. I start looking - I've got it somewhere.

Here is another Saint-�tienne "Canons Gallia" gun with the rampant lion. I'm wondering if that is the mark for the Gallia barrel maker.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=486445

Quoted from the line:
On the undersides of the barrel assembly where it meet the receiver it has:
St Etiennes proof mark
Canons Gallia
A rearing lion in front of:
Marque Deposee
Crochets Encastres

There is only one murky photo of the barrel flats - I've tried to blow it up and sharpen it as much as possible - It does appear to have the lion:


Edit: Turns out same post was on DGS:
https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=276179&page=all
better photo. I'm assuming that the it was identified as Gerest Berthon by the initial GB.


I'd like to confirm that Canons Gallia was indeed a trademark of Berthon Fr�res. David, could you check your barrel carefully to see if has a Berthon Fr�res engraving on it. It will be tiny. Here is the engraving on my Gerest Berthon.

That's why Argo44 get paid the big bucks.


But all inquiries should follow this path & not become misdirected like a lost ball in high weeds.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

The auction just ended yesterday afternoon. It will probably be a couple of weeks before I receive the gun.

This from Littlegun.com
http://www.littlegun.info/arme%20francaise/artisans%20a%20b/a%20berthon%20freres%20fr.htm
(my rough translation)

Berthon Fr�res

Berthon Fr�res, fabricants d'armes a St Etienne de 1900 � 1910. Successeurs de la Maison Martin Gerest. D�p�t de deux marques de fabrique le 26 avril 1912 pour platine "Perfecta"et une autre. Deux autres d�p�ts le 11 juin 1912 pour canons "Gallia" et carabine "La Lorraine". Devient en 1922 Laspoussas-Berthon & Cie, puis Laspoussas & Driol en 1923. L'entreprise a exist� jusqu'en 1950.

(Berthon Brothers, arms makers in St Etienne from 1900 to 1920. Successors to the house of Martin Gerest. They filed two trademarks on 26 April 1912 for the side lock "Perfecta" and another. Two other trademarks on 11 June 1912 for "Gallia" barrels and the carbine "La Lorraine." They became in 1922 Laspoussas-Breton & Cei, then Laspoussas & Driol in 1923. The enterprises existed until 1950).

(Le Qui est Qui de l'Arme en France par Jean -Jacques Buign�) (source: "Who's who for French arms" by Jean-Jacques Buigne)

Edoardo Mori (Italie) and Udo Lander (Allemagne) (sent by Edoardo Mori-Italy and Udo Lander-GermanY)

D'apr�s le r�pertoire des arquebusiers, on peut lire ceci, je cite : Besides the lists of gun makers, one can also read this:

Berthon (Fr�res) armurier � Saint-�tienne en 1900, 10, rue Villeboeuf.

Max. (Belgique)

La Soci�t� Berthon Fr�res laissa au moins deux brevets li�s � des fusils de chasse � canons doubles. Les brevets sont ; FR21760 dont l�objet �tait un m�canisme de fermeture, de prolongation de nervure, et de levier �top lever�. Le brevet a �t� demand� (appliqu�) en 1919, et a �t� rendu public en 1921. FR552254 qui �tait pour la conception d�un juxtapos� qui augmentait la surface entre la goupille de charni�re et le crochet du canon. Cela semble une digne et ing�nieuse id�e de brevet. Demand� en 1922 et rendu public en 1923.

The Berthon Brothers company filed at least two patents for SxS shotguns; the patents are FR21760 for a closing mechanism by top lever. The patent was applied for in 1919, and was publicized in 1921. FR552254 which was for the conception of a SxS which added to the surface between the pin and the lump. This seemed a simple and ingenious patent idea. He was applied for in 1922 and issued in 1923

Il est peu commun que des �tudes de ce genre aient �t� faites apr�s la Premi�re Guerre Mondiale, � un moment o� la plupart des fabricants d�armes participaient aux efforts de guerre.

It was not normal that this type of study (of hunting guns) was being done after the First World War, at a time with the majority of gun makers were participating in the war effort.

Bob Chambers, Buffalo NY (USA)

So was the Berthon Fr�res using the trademark >>Gallia<< prior to June 11th, 1912? Or would the longarm date to 1912?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

We've established that the change back to mm to measure chambers from cm in Saint-�tienne occurred in 1912. We don't know exactly when. But:
-- it was definitely 1912 per dated Didier Drevet barrels
-- On the Darne number chart (Ted will caution about exceptions) it happened just around serial C600-700 (1912 per the chart):
. . . . . . .- C692, a 12 gauge with a chamber stamp "6.5".
. . . . . . .- C643, a 20 gauge with a chamber stamp "70".

Now if Berthon Fr�res trademarked "Canons Gallia" on 11 Jun 1912...then you've likely dated your gun to within a couple of months - summer 1912. (And incidentally we've established that the changeover to mm was after 11 June 1912).

Raimey, you and I were thinking the same thing. I suppose it's possible he was using Canons Gallia before the trademark...but....heck...lets date the gun.

David, the common idea in gun scholarship is that it's darned difficult to date a Saint-�tienne gun - there are no French dating stamps. But by chance, dating your gun doesn't get much better than this.

The Internet is full of information on its former owner, who brought it back from Europe in 1945: Col. Walter D. Buie, West Point 1920.

Argo44:

Like minds from Alabama do think alike from time to time....


Cheers,

Raimey
rse