doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com F.P. Geerinckx a Paris

Please explain "V-C stop."

Verney-Carron. In the 1890's he invented a top lever closing system that had four locks and never needed to be adjusted. He patented it under several names for 30 years. It has a stop on the left side of the top lever...no threaded nut on the top of the lever because he inverted it. A lot of French firms copied it for years...or they put "Helice" on their top levers hoping that the V-C reputation would leak onto their guns.

It's been discussed here for years - See these lines:
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=561538
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=514455&page=all
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=480839
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=541475

This gun however, does not use the V-C patent; It's a Scott Spindle: see the slot in the top lever:

Nice sleuthing there Argo. To whom does the Rampant Lion belong that is seen on the bottom portion of the flats?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I generally think of myself as a well-informed gun enthusiast, but ask a question here, and voil�! you get guys coming along who know all about "Verney-Carron Stops" and "Scott Spindles" and who can come up with the build date for some random French double. I'll admit it: I'm impressed.

Scott Spindle: http://www.hallowellco.com/scott%20spindle.htm

I've seen that rampant lion before....had an image in my Saint Etienne database but unfortunately I forgot to label it. I start looking - I've got it somewhere.

Here is another Saint-�tienne "Canons Gallia" gun with the rampant lion. I'm wondering if that is the mark for the Gallia barrel maker.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=486445

Quoted from the line:
On the undersides of the barrel assembly where it meet the receiver it has:
St Etiennes proof mark
Canons Gallia
A rearing lion in front of:
Marque Deposee
Crochets Encastres

There is only one murky photo of the barrel flats - I've tried to blow it up and sharpen it as much as possible - It does appear to have the lion:


Edit: Turns out same post was on DGS:
https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=276179&page=all
better photo. I'm assuming that the it was identified as Gerest Berthon by the initial GB.


I'd like to confirm that Canons Gallia was indeed a trademark of Berthon Fr�res. David, could you check your barrel carefully to see if has a Berthon Fr�res engraving on it. It will be tiny. Here is the engraving on my Gerest Berthon.

That's why Argo44 get paid the big bucks.


But all inquiries should follow this path & not become misdirected like a lost ball in high weeds.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

The auction just ended yesterday afternoon. It will probably be a couple of weeks before I receive the gun.

This from Littlegun.com
http://www.littlegun.info/arme%20francaise/artisans%20a%20b/a%20berthon%20freres%20fr.htm
(my rough translation)

Berthon Fr�res

Berthon Fr�res, fabricants d'armes a St Etienne de 1900 � 1910. Successeurs de la Maison Martin Gerest. D�p�t de deux marques de fabrique le 26 avril 1912 pour platine "Perfecta"et une autre. Deux autres d�p�ts le 11 juin 1912 pour canons "Gallia" et carabine "La Lorraine". Devient en 1922 Laspoussas-Berthon & Cie, puis Laspoussas & Driol en 1923. L'entreprise a exist� jusqu'en 1950.

(Berthon Brothers, arms makers in St Etienne from 1900 to 1920. Successors to the house of Martin Gerest. They filed two trademarks on 26 April 1912 for the side lock "Perfecta" and another. Two other trademarks on 11 June 1912 for "Gallia" barrels and the carbine "La Lorraine." They became in 1922 Laspoussas-Breton & Cei, then Laspoussas & Driol in 1923. The enterprises existed until 1950).

(Le Qui est Qui de l'Arme en France par Jean -Jacques Buign�) (source: "Who's who for French arms" by Jean-Jacques Buigne)

Edoardo Mori (Italie) and Udo Lander (Allemagne) (sent by Edoardo Mori-Italy and Udo Lander-GermanY)

D'apr�s le r�pertoire des arquebusiers, on peut lire ceci, je cite : Besides the lists of gun makers, one can also read this:

Berthon (Fr�res) armurier � Saint-�tienne en 1900, 10, rue Villeboeuf.

Max. (Belgique)

La Soci�t� Berthon Fr�res laissa au moins deux brevets li�s � des fusils de chasse � canons doubles. Les brevets sont ; FR21760 dont l�objet �tait un m�canisme de fermeture, de prolongation de nervure, et de levier �top lever�. Le brevet a �t� demand� (appliqu�) en 1919, et a �t� rendu public en 1921. FR552254 qui �tait pour la conception d�un juxtapos� qui augmentait la surface entre la goupille de charni�re et le crochet du canon. Cela semble une digne et ing�nieuse id�e de brevet. Demand� en 1922 et rendu public en 1923.

The Berthon Brothers company filed at least two patents for SxS shotguns; the patents are FR21760 for a closing mechanism by top lever. The patent was applied for in 1919, and was publicized in 1921. FR552254 which was for the conception of a SxS which added to the surface between the pin and the lump. This seemed a simple and ingenious patent idea. He was applied for in 1922 and issued in 1923

Il est peu commun que des �tudes de ce genre aient �t� faites apr�s la Premi�re Guerre Mondiale, � un moment o� la plupart des fabricants d�armes participaient aux efforts de guerre.

It was not normal that this type of study (of hunting guns) was being done after the First World War, at a time with the majority of gun makers were participating in the war effort.

Bob Chambers, Buffalo NY (USA)