doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com pattern difference between 2f and 3f backpowder?

Hi I've been playing around with some black powder of late using 2 3/4 drams of FFF with 1oz of shot A .125" nitro wad and a 1/2" fibre wad with a polystyrene under shot wad to get a good crimp in plastic shells I have just got hold of some FF and was wondering if anyone has done some testing between the 2 at the pattern plate? I was putting the FFF through a SXS hammer gun choked .010" and .015" and was getting sub cylinder patterns I was thinking the powder was blowing through the shot charge maybe? I will load some FF to the same recipe and test for myself just a little intersted to hear other peoples thoughts?
one thing is for sure using BP sure does drag in a crowd

Check to see if the wads are actually sealing the bore. If they are, they should be very hard to push down the bore. I have one old gun that someone reamed the bore and the wads slide easily down it -- patterns are really bad, spotty, sub-cylinder percentages. Same ammo in unreamed bores (nominal bore diameter for gauge) give good patterns, usually close to what constriction indicates.

The load you are using should pattern nicely, IF the wads are sealing the bore.

I have always had to go to one-peice plastic wads to get good patterns from overbored barrels.

Niklas

I haven't done any direct testing yet with mine, but I know they kill and smash ok! As above, a tight seal is important: I use a .750" punch, rather than the smaller, true 12 bore. 2f v 3f may be a gentler push and change things for the better. The ratio of powder to shot can be tweaked: equal volumes is the rule of thumb, but more powder can add speed and loosen patterns, less can tighten and slow them. Don't be too concerned with chasing velocity with BP - mine only run about 1000fps.
Hope I'm not teaching you to suck eggs here!
RG

No mate no worries there I have done a lot of pattern testing with this new fangled smokeless stuff I will definetly do some black powder loads to see how they go
I am probably only getting 1000fps with my loads havent had the chance to set fire to the chrony yet!!!! as for wads I will have toi measure the od to see what I have but they are a tight fit into a cartridge

It is not fit in the hull that is critical, it is how well fiber wads actually seal the bore. That takes a rather tight fitting fiber wad (over powder and cushin). One "fix" for fiber wads in overbored guns is to use thin brass hulls and wads one or two gauge sizes larger.

Long ago, drawn brass shotshells were preferred by duck hunters, partly because they did not swell when wet (like paper ones did) but also because they often gave tighter patterns. The common explanation of the tighter patterns was that the larger OD wads sealed better.

In the particular overbored shotgun I mention above, fiber wads tight enough to seal the bore were nearly impossible to seat in modern plastic hulls.

Also long, long ago, someone(s) invented paper cup wads that went under the overpowder wad. Function of these paper cup wads was same as plastic cup on the bottom of modern plastic one-peice wads, that is, to seal the bore nicely, over a rather wide range of bore diameters. They did and do work really well.

Also, a major reason why some many shotguns from fiber wad days (pre 1940 or so) had undersized bores is so that fiber wads were more likely to seal properly.

Niklas

the barrels on the Armi Gamba (hammer gun mentioned above ) measure .724" which is one reason why I choose it for blackpowder work I haven't tried a wad in the bore of it yet but it is something to ckeck
I alos tried my H grade Lefever it seemed to shoot quite well with the same loads it measures .729 but has tighter chokes I'm going from memory here but I think they were .021 and .035? will check my book and report back

Anyone try paper shot cups in muzzleloaders?

I am trying to tighten patterns with my 11 bore Frazier.

Regards

GKT

Greg the muzzleloaders pretty much don't need a cup because they are loading a tight wad into a bore instead of into a shell. Most muzzleloaders I have observed use an over powder wad, crimped with a thumb a little so it can be easily seated but will fully spread out under pressure. Some don't bother with a cushion wad at all and get good results. Jim Legg will probably come in here and add his experience. He has considerable with the muzzleloaders.

checked my book H Grade has .023" and .034" chokes I also tried pushing a nitro card through the barrels it was firm but not over tight the nitro cards are .125" by .740" so they should be a good interference fit in both guns the 1/2" fibre wads also measure around .740"
next step is to try some Wano FFg and see what happens