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Geo that is very neat

Argo44 kindly translated a couple of pages of Mournetas's book that dealt with the partial rifling of one barrel of the Ideal and a rare example of both barrels being partially rifled. Thanks, Gene:
"That will be the chokes. These came directly from a English discovery which consisted of modifying the profile of the end of the bore of the barrel. These were a form of constricting the diameter of the bore achieved artificially by laying a (small) tube of rifled steel in the interior of the barrel (at the muzzle) naturally leaving a supression at the moment of the casting of the barrel

In the case of l�IDEAL, is was thus developed barrels naturally choke-bored and those artifically choke-bored. It is quite easy to detect with the eye which type of choke an IDEAL is equiped with in the first models. In effect the black powder, by its corrosiveness, left a tiny circular streak in the bore of the barrel at the point of the junction with the monobloc.

There exists yet another combination of choke systems which consists of putting fine stripes on the tapering of the choke on the rounded edges. This gives to the interior of the mouth of the barrel the aspect in miniature of a crinkled tapered tube. This process, also of English origin, is called rifling. It gives surprising results in the the long range of the pellets.

Nevertheless, it is very rare to find an IDEAL so equipped because on one part the fabrication was complicated and thus onerous and, on the other part, the fouling by black powder posed a problem. This led them rapidly to abandon the concept. To my knowledge no long gun of this type has been made by the Manufacturer since the beginning of the century. But, before closing this paragraph, it�s worth noting that certain barrels, meant for firing ball, were rifled from the exit of the chamber, along the entire length of the barrel. What happiness for a collecter to come upon such a rarity.

The choke initially seen on the barrel of the IDEAL corresponded to a constriction equivalent to that of one caliber. As it is evident that shooting during a hunt doesn�t take place at a constant distance, it was necessary to adapt the chokes according to the ground and thus also was born the half-choke (constriction by a half caliber)

Before the great war, the IDEAL generally carried an open smoothbore barrel on the right and a choke-bored one on the left for barrels 74 cm in length. Bores with half choke on right and full choke on the left on barrels from 65-70 cm. Except for special orders of course. For pigeon shooting models, full choke on both sides was the norm.

Thereafter, that excelent compromise, half-choke on the right and full-choke on the left were kept on all the classic series IDEALs. (see the tables on page 34).

There is another particularity which we are going to find on the barrels of the IDEAL. The (shallow) rifling. For the dispersion of shot when firing at a short distance and for the shooting of ball, a number of IDEAL came, on special order, with the right barrel (unchoked) rifled �SUPRA� beginning in the 1920�s. Previously, on certain models such as the COLONIAL IDEAL, only one length of some 8 cm was striated (rifled) at the beginning of the barrel. This assured the rotation of the ball without perturbing in the slightest the smaller shot. The compromise was a good one and it made its mark abroad to the point that certain of the classic series can be seen with the right barrel provided with such rifling. Such a rarity."

Gil,
I�ve only seen a few rifled barrels on French guns. I never saw pumpkin ball type slugs in France, notable to me because every gun proofed in France with a modified or tighter choke has a warning dutifully stamped on the flats, warning against their use.
Foster type slugs were all I saw, Brenneke, Winchester, Federal and Rotweil were the brands I saw. French proof, high as it is, allowed for use of American standard ammunition.
Every gun shop had a nice selection of slugs, the French had plenty of pigs that needed to be killed, but, they were short on most everything else except, maybe, ducks. They were really short on places to hunt. The damage to a crummy little French car after it hit a 500 lb wild pig was immense, and people often got hurt. Every shop also had a few Remington 870 Express models, usually with a slug barrel, or two barrels, and red dot sight systems or low powered scopes for same. 12 and 20 gauge, just like here. The guys who hunted pigs were welcome everywhere, the pigs seemed like a hell of a nuisance.
I would guess that the 870 was the most popular gun in the mid 1990s in France. None of the gunmakers was happy about it, but, it was reality. None of the gunmakers I met were regulars at bird hunting, sometimes going years between treasured invites from friends or acquaintances who had the means. Woodcock seemed to be what everybody wanted to hunt. But, few people needed a Raye barrel to just dream about woodcock they were never going to see, much less hunt.

Best,
Ted

Ted, it seems feral or wild hogs are a menace wherever they exist.
Are the French communal hunting association members given access to hunting lands or are they just social groups of like-minded individuals?� Here are a few hat pins from various associations.� Best,
Gil

with some misgivings i have bid on and bought the morphy gun, the barrel dent is my main concern....but it wouldn't be the first time i've overstepped the bounds of good judgement.

i can live with the stock extension, or if the length is good for me, replace it with a .600 old english. if the through bolt has stabilized the split in the wrist (the crack looks nice and tight), i enjoy refinishing wood. the telltale damage around the top tang is not as bad as usual and could be fairly concealed with a small amount of acraglass if the color were carefully matched.

wish that i could have the opportunities to see and handle as many of these guns as you and canvasback do. i can count all i've ever handled on my fingers....with one hand still in my pocket. this one will be my third; a decrepit 16 grade 1 at a 1980's dallas gun show (which i promptly sold), a 1938-9 16 #320 that i stumbled upon on gunbroker a few years back, and now a roll of the dice on this gun.
best regards,
tom

Gil,
Land access is a big deal in France. A farmer who might pay you to shoot pigs likely wouldn�t consider letting you hunt birds or ducks on his ground. Birds, in this context, almost always means the big European woodcock. There are pheasants, nobody seemed to talk much about them.
I have no idea how the associations work. Perhaps they pool resources and lease land for the members. I would guess it is a little bit of everything, maybe up to even traveling to other countries to hunt under the umbrella of your club.
We have it better, here. I always wondered who the home team guys in France were, that kept the gunmakers busy enough to make a living building double guns. A lot of them were sold right in country.

Best,
Ted

"Not For Ball' & etc originated from the fact many shotguns, from muzzleloader days into early breech-loaders were habitually used with round balls for larger game. It had been common practice to use a close-fitting ball to the bore of the gun for better accuracy. With the common acceptance of choke boring in the breech-loaders, a ball sized closely to the bore would obviously play havoc with the choke.

By at least 1910 W W Greener wrote that even guns marked Not for Ball could be safely & effectively fired with a solid ball "Provided" a small enough ball was used to pass through the choke. Thus if a nominal 0.729 12 gauge was given a full choke down to about 0.690" choke then the ball had to be smaller than 0.690" in diameter. A commonly used 0.719" ball would wreck the muzzle end of the barrel.

He further stated this was the reason the British proof houses changed their markings from "Not for Ball" to the simple word "Choke".

That's been at least 110 years ago, Weird that so many folks Still Haven't Caught On.

Some folks left well enough alone, I guess. The same folks never found themselves outside of the Brussels Convention with the works of their proof house, either.

Best,
Ted

thought i would add this to the discussion re: rifled barrels on french guns; this morning there was a listing for a mf robust on guns international, #101390417. it is a fully rifled barrel rather than the raye type. it has the first "legible" photo of such a barrel i have ever seen...

i have taken delivery of the morphy gun on 4 march. general condition was actually better than the photos & description led me to expect. haven't had a chance to measure wall thicknesses, but my bore gauge says .722-3 with 40 thou constriction on left,(proofed at 18.3) and....