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The Reilly 16 bore SN 5512 discussed in this line is back home. http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...1767#Post551767Steve took the bore plugs out, drilled out the rusted nipples and installed modern nipples, tightened up the loose left side hammer, test fired it and left everything else alone. I've decided not to mess with the Patina. Pitting in the chambers but still plenty of metal around. Old/New Nipples: [/URL [URL=http://www.jpgbox.com/page/57895_740x768/]Now I'm headed out to test fire it myself intending to limit the load to 70 grains of powder with 1 oz load of 7.5 lead shot maximum. Generally following the rule of thumb on this chart: But I haven't fired a muzzle loader in 38 years. So have I got this stack right? 1 - powder - 70 gains 2 - 1/8" card; 3 - fiber wad - soaked in crisco 4 - shot - 1 oz 5 - overshot card. Do the beveled edge of the fiber wad go towards breech or muzzle (I first suspected muzzle to insure sealing - but it might go towards the powder to insure ease of ramming it home?)
Last edited by Argo44; 09/13/19 01:45 PM.
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The beveled edge goes in first (toward the powder), it is beveled to make it easier to load.
That said, I find that the fiber wads blow a hole in my pattern. I've tried cutting them in half, which was much better, in thirds, which also works. The I tried skipping the damned fiber wad, and that seemed to work best. My experience does not seem to be unusual.
Otherwise, your load looks like a good hunting load, and should be very effective to 25, maybe 30, yards. I haven't found any black powder loads that are effective further than that. I was much happier when I stopped trying. For phaesant, I tend to use 6's, but I've certainly dropped them dead with 7.5's at that range.
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Thanks...I'm going to shoot some sporting clays first. My son is groaning, "Dad, how long will I have to wait for you to load?" I reply, "Ah, the sun comes up and sets but is always warm"; "Thorns are part of life"; "Water, clouds and cold make beautiful snow"; "To dawdle before flowers is not a delay in life".... (some sort of made up Zen philosophy always works).
Last edited by Argo44; 09/12/19 08:15 PM.
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I have (somewhere) a copy of Vernon Starr's book on muzzle loading shotguns. I do recall he recommended for best patterns to use two cad wads over the powder with no filler wad & then of course the overshot wad. On thing he recommended which I, Personally, would not advise was to "Pucker Up & Spit" down the bore before loading.
An old "Rule of Thumb" for many shooters of ML'ing shotguns is an equal measure {volume} for shot & powder. A 2 1/2 dram 1 oz load is about as near dead on as one will get. Commercial powders are,or at least used to be, given a volume of 0.115 CuIn per dram of powder & 0.288 CuIn for the shot. I can't say for positive but I "Think" this was based on an average of 2F & 3F so either would be real close. The shot I think was based on ordinary chilled lead of about 7 1/2 size. #6 through #8 would also be very close.
PS; The fiber wads I have had over the years did not have that distinctive beveled edge. I always just picked them up & paid no attention to which end was up or down.
Lorne; One little Blooper there you might want to edit, should read 70 "Grains" of powder. I haven't run the figures but I believe 70 "Drams" would overflow the barrel
Miller/TN I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Beveled edge....I heard it all now. Shewwwww Pitting in the chambers but still plenty of metal around.
Tell your son to stand behind you when you set off those nAsty sewer pipes.
Last edited by HomelessjOe; 09/13/19 07:01 AM. Reason: Ps...did I see a cOck'e roach peeking out of one of those caverns ?
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For the first two shots I recommend a hefty overload. I used to strap the guns in an old tire after loading one barrel and pull trigger with a long cord. Repeat for second barrel. Just gave me a little peace of mind before taking the guns afield. For example on a lightweight 10 ga I would use 6 dr. black and 2 oz shot with normal wadding.
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Heavy overloads are not wonderful for the stock and may create problems that it didn't have to begin with. I do something a bit less drastic perhaps.
_________ BrentD, (Professor - just for Stan)
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I once read some advice concerning old guns. I do not recall the source but the writer seemed well versed in his topic. I have come to adopt his method.
Start with a quite light load & work your way up. After each level of load examine the gun carefully, paying attention to the exterior. Look for any signs of "Soot" showing leakage through the wall. If that is encountered "Hang it on the Wall".
I would agree with Hal's load as a good ending point. If it passes that then I would use ordinary light loads & shoot & enjoy it. Do take extreme care in cleaning so those pits don't grow worse.
My personal opinion is that the Dangers involved due to dissimilar metals being joined by fusion welding has been Grossly Exaggerated. In the case of these barrels, the two metals do not just Butt up against each other but are fused together & this does not appear to me to be a major problem, or even a problem at all.
Miller/TN I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Thanks Miller. It's been shot with 1 1/4 oz loads and 2 3/4 drams of powder. I plan to shoot max 1 oz loads and 70 grains of powder.
I've been persuaded to try the "Skychief's load."...very interesting posts on Muzzleloadersforum and it makes sense, especially out of my old bores. -- 68 grains of FFg powder (pyrodex FS equivalent since I have no idea what is the old powder in my powder flask) -- 1/8" card -- 1 oz 7.5 lead shot -- 1 overshot card -- Fiber wad rolled in canola oil.
I'll start out with 3/4 oz - 55 grains; then go up to 7/8 oz - 62 grains....and will examine the barrels as you suggested after each shot. Thanks for the help...exactly the kind of support I was looking for from Tennessee.
I edited the blooper about 70 "drams"...or course I meant "grains". Oh well...they recommended I start with a heavy load and I always wanted to see if blackpowder could take out the Hoover Dam.
Gene .
Last edited by Argo44; 09/13/19 01:47 PM.
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I split my fiber wads in half. Works best for me. It is all trial and error as far as I can tell. What ever works for you is fine.
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I never saw any need to do anything different than equal volumes of powder and shot. If I was on the bird I killed it with that load. I favor 7 1/2s with a m/l for doves and quail. Equal volumes do not yield high velocities and the extra mass in the 7 1/2s pays off in more dead birds as opposed to cripples, in my experience.
When shooting skeet, or some other clays game, soak the fiber wads in some moose milk. It will significantly reduce the fouling build-up, between shots.
SRH
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I shoot skeet and 5 Stand with BP sxs muzzleloaders. For skeet I shoot 2 shoots at each station, and can generally keep right up. I do all the set up and take down for 5 Stand, so the others understand that they have to put up with me a bit, but any one slow shooter and I am very close.
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If loading brass shells a few days before using them, does oil or moose milk in the fiber wad seep through to the BP and compromise it? If so, does a grease like Crisco have the same effect?
And as to the 25-30 yard range mentioned by Lorne, were fowlers with heavier loads and tight chokes able to attain significantly longer effective ranges?
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Choke and muzzleloader don't work so well. Compressing wads past choke leads to poor gas seal.
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Can you see l that little cock roach peeking out of the crevices... Pitting in the chambers but still plenty of metal around. I like how you reassure yourself "pitting in the chambers but still plenty of metal all around". Do you know how stupid that sounds ?
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Can you see l that little cock roach peeking out of the crevices... Pitting in the chambers but still plenty of metal around. I like how you reassure yourself "pitting in the chambers but still plenty of metal all around". Do you know how stupid that sounds ? Not nearly as stupid as yoursel - self-declared dumbass.
_________ BrentD, (Professor - just for Stan)
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I had old V.M. Starr jug-choke my Dewson 10ga. "Little powder, much lead; shoots far, kills dead" seems to hold true for these old percussion guns. 4 dr Fg with 1 5/8 oz Lubaloy 4's worked great for pass shooting diving ducks. Cut the load way back for trapshooting. I used saliva on my over powder wads like V.M. recommended. Seemed to push fouling from previous shots on top of the powder column and make loading easier. To clean, pump with warm soapy water in a bucket and a rag on your bristle brush till you can draw water in and push it out of the nipples in a steady stream. Then repeat with plain hot water and dry. But those days are long gone, at least for waterfowl hunting.
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If choke degrades patterns with felt wads, did tightly choked breech-loading fowlers of the later 18th century produce poor patterns? Were they used mostly at short ranges?
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Well, I don't usually answer Frank but want to explain myself again. I'm a Reilly historian. This is the only Reilly I've ever seen with both High Holborn and New Oxford street addresses on the same gun - surely dating to spring 1847. Barrels have been shortened 2"; it's not in good shape, but for me it is a historic gun. I had it gone over. I have more money in it than I'll ever get out....not important. If I cannot shoot these barrels, I'll investigate sleeving them back to the original 16 bore or maybe 20 bore. I'm not interested in a wall gun. I want to be able to shoot this gun if at all possible.
Last edited by Argo44; 09/14/19 02:48 PM.
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You got Reilly up the dAiry'air for sure....
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Argo, there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers so I'll offer mine.
The component order I used, which I copied from men like MV Highsmith and others, was as follows.
Powder, one or two thin nitro cards, cushion wad, thin nitro card, shot, then the over shot thin card.
The 1/8" cards are harder to get down while the two thin cards are much easier. You need a thin card between the cushion and the shot so shot won't stick in the cushion.
I hope this helps.
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Frank, this is the last time I'll respond to you, because trying to talk to morons or monkeys never ends well Neither understands; both just throw shite and bananas. But I feel sorry for you and in a friendly way, would like to suggest you get help.
You see, without socializaton, one degerates into an ill-tempered, mean, vicious, hateful, solitary, lonely old man. I thought about suggesting church most congregations are inclusive. But itd require you finding your Sunday clothes I think you hung them on the peg on the back of your tar-paper shack by the outhouse about 15 years agoshould be ok if the hogs havent got them. But then there are shoes.. No matter - Jesus only had sandals.
So j0e find somebody you can talk to..even if its over the usual bottle of shine. Because if you continue to communicate only with turkeys.... you turn into one.
Last edited by Argo44; 09/22/19 01:23 PM.
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And for you guys who have helped. I now have about 6 recipes to try and am really looking forward to this. Thanks for everything. I'l do some serious research and publish what I come up with using this gun.
Last edited by Argo44; 09/14/19 09:34 PM.
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Hal; I probably didn't make myself clear. A lot of muzzleloader rifle shooters use Spit Patches when loading for immediate use. They claim better accuracy but is doubtful that it is a good practice on a hunting gun which may be loaded in the morning & perhaps not shot all day.
The part I would not do is to lean my head over a loaded shotgun & spit down the bore, even if it is not capped. I'm not an accurate enough ""Spitter" to keep my head a safe distance away & hit the bores with spit.
Miller/TN I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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No reason to feel any sorrow for me I'm not the guy with a muzzle loader with sewer pipes for barrels acting like an arogant pompous azz...
Here's some food for thought...
How deep you figure those cavities go...looks pretty ruff to me...once fired how you figure you'll ever hope to clean the corrosion out of those deep cavities. (You can't)
Better get that thinking cap on O'Reilly bOy.
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Hal; I probably didn't make myself clear. A lot of muzzleloader rifle shooters use Spit Patches when loading for immediate use. They claim better accuracy but is doubtful that it is a good practice on a hunting gun which may be loaded in the morning & perhaps not shot all day.
The part I would not do is to lean my head over a loaded shotgun & spit down the bore, even if it is not capped. I'm not an accurate enough ""Spitter" to keep my head a safe distance away & hit the bores with spit. The patch lubricant of choice for over twenty years has been "Teflon" coated pillow ticking. It is bought by shooters already coated on one side with the greenish "Teflon" substance. However, the material is stiff, from not having the sizing ever washed out of it after it was woven. This inherent stiffness leads to problems with wrinkles as the ball/patch is seated into the muzzle. I found that dampening the other side of the patch on my tongue softens the sizing in the cloth and allows the patch to stretch better, giving much less chance of having a bad wrinkle on the ball/patch. A bad wrinkle can cause a shot to go out of the group. All this is for those seeking the ultimate accuracy out of a roundball barrel, not necessarily for hunting purposes. Spitting down bore is for movies, not useful in any way. Blowing down the bore immediately after the shot has been taken is a useful way to verify that the nipple or touch hole is open, by observing the puff of smoke that comes out of it when you blow. I prefer not to do so, however, with the idea that if that habit became too ingrained I might one day forget and do so with a double, which may have the other barrel still loaded. SRH
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]No reason to feel any sorrow for me I'm not the guy with a muzzle loader with sewer pipes for barrels acting like an arogant pompous azz...
No you are the pompous ass that who looks like a sewer pipe himself. And why ARE you always such a pompous ass, Frank?
_________ BrentD, (Professor - just for Stan)
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Stan; I only have one ML rifle which I built around 50 years ago. I used s Douglas .45 cal barrel which has grooves of about .010", per side. Pillow ticking is my normal patch material. I make sure it is All Cotton & have not used any of the Teflon coated. I just buy a length at the fabric store, put it through 1 or sometimes 2 wash cycles before using. I have wet the patches on my tongue, but only when I was planning on shooting immediately. When I carried it hunting I always used some other form of lubricant.
As I said my problem was not with the Spit itself, but putting my head over the muzzle of a loaded gun barrel. Many are think when you remove the cap from a caplock gun it is totally Safe, Not So. Some years back a third cousin of mine took our G-Grandfather's ML rifle to school on the school bus for Show & Tell. Family lore has it he had carried this rifle for at least part of "The War" even though it was a hunting rifle. While on the way to school she was holding it between her legs pointed Up, & casually cocked the hammer & pulled the trigger. The result was she put a hole through the roof of the Bus. It was un-capped & who knows how long it had been loaded. Our G-Grandfather had died in the late 1890s, Can't say if it was used after that or not.
Miller/TN I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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I had a 10 gauge Manton about 10 years ago. I used to fire 12 gauge loads through it (3 drams BP and 1-1/8 oz shot) and used the gun on pen-raised pheasants that were released at the nearby state-run pheasant hunting concession. To safety test the gun when I first used it: I removed the barrels and loaded each barrel with a double powder charge of 6 drams and 1-1/8 oz shot (the kind of mistake thats easy to make in the field). I next took the old beat-up percussion nipples (that Id replaced) and drilled out the centers enough to stick a Black Cat firecracker fuse in and then I screwed them back into the guns breeches. I finally strapped the barrels tightly to a sawhorse and fired them individually with the firecracker fuses while I stood safely behind a tree (stick the fuses in individually so that sparks from one dont light the other). Both barrels came through the test just fine.
Steve
PS when you load your first barrel with the standard load that you plan to use slide the ramroad down the barrel to the top of the load and mark the ramroad with a marking pen so that you can view it every time you reload.
Approach life like you do a yellow light - RUN IT! (Gail T.)
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I said nothing about rifles or spitting down barrels. I chewed the over powder wads up for a few seconds before loading. The only parts of my body in front of those muzzles were a couple fingers.
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I said nothing about rifles or spitting down barrels. I chewed the over powder wads up for a few seconds before loading. The only parts of my body in front of those muzzles were a couple fingers. Hal; I fully understood that. BUT, that not the way Starr did it. He Said, "Pucker Up & Spit down the Barrel" . That's a totally different thing that chewing on the wad in your mouth. I can't spit down a barrel without getting my head to close for comfort. That was the only part I was really commenting on. As for the Spit it has proved for years to work good in MLr guns be they rifle or shot. Though I have not tested it I do feel it would be rust inducive if loaded for a length of time, would only use it on a range or such.
Miller/TN I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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I don't know about spitting down the barrels but my guess judging from the first photo that some disgruntled shooter must have pee'd down those barrels...
Now I can only speculate that because the nipples were plugged that the pee had no where to drain....thus causing the sewer pipe effect.
If you pee down your barrels store your gun muzzle down.
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Spit is an amazing lubricant. But might he have been spitting tobacco?
Whatever, the Skychief load has a lot of fans. I was even told not to replace olive-oil with canola oil....seems that Skychief tried a lot of variants and the final recipe works best (the type of olive oil - Greek. Italian, Spanish - French keep all theirs for themselves - was not specified). Olive oil was one of the basis of Mediterranean civilization and can lubricate about anything....it's just temperature sensitive for taste reasons.
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Urine was thought to increase the power of black powder.
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During the War for Southern Independence, the ladies of Atlanta Georgia were asked to save their Urine in a chamber pot. This was in turned in to a collection point & was used for making the Salt Peter (Potassium Nitrate) for making gunpowder. The term Black Powder did not come into use until after the development of Smokeless, to differentiate between the two. For centuries it had simply been called Gunpowder. Much of the saltpeter was made from bat guana dug from caves. I have been in a cave in which this was done during "The War". Chicken manure was also a common source.
It is then a popular ingredient in Sugar Cured Ham, have cured some myself using it back when we used to kill our own hogs..
Miller/TN I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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See there George I bet you fellers thought I was peeing on your legs....
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Ergo44...I know yer mad at me beings you think I pee'd on yer O'Reilly parade.
Honestly I figure you really messed up by taking out them breech plugs and nipples and cleaning those barrels before doing a little more research.
Being your a self declared/anointed O'Reilly Historian/O'thority I figure you would have known better.
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Last edited by Argo44; 09/22/19 01:40 PM.
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It looks like you had a good time with it. Congratulations!
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looks like a blast! Tell me, what sort of order were the breech plugs in, particularly the thread, its something that worries me with a muzzleloader, more so than any pitting.
As an aside I cut wads from beer mat and engineers pure wool felt. I dip the felt in melted lube, and glue a beer card wad to top and bottom. That way its just powder,composite wad, shot and overshot card.
GDU
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looks like a blast! Tell me, what sort of order were the breech plugs in, particularly the thread, its something that worries me with a muzzleloader, more so than any pitting.
Why would the thread condition of the breach plugs worry you more so than any pitting ? Pitting is like a tooth cavity only worse no way to measure depth yOu can't put a little bOndo in the hole and it will go away.... Shooting a 100 plus year old gun with a deep pit is like playing Russian Roulette. Once rust and corrosion start on metal there is no real way of stopping it. Might get your prioritizes in order Greg
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 638 Likes: 2
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 638 Likes: 2 |
Well, I've never seen a muzzle-loader blow up, as such. However I have seen a nipple drum take off from the side of a reproduction muzzle-loader. Turns out the threads were rusted almost away, so it became the path of least resistance. Made me think of those breech plug threads, would hate for one to come loose. That said my gunsmith opines those he has taken out from originals actually tend to be in pretty good nick, so was curious what these were like as there has obviously been some corrosion in the breech area. I've not taken mine out, I'm too worried about damaging something if they are too tight.
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Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,169 Likes: 321
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,169 Likes: 321 |
The butt plug threads looked fine. There is a thin fault in the left butt plug - see the whitish area but it is not a "load bearing" area. I think the butt plugs look amazingly fine for a 170 year old gun: By the way Greg, another New Zealand on-line acquaintance called Robert Hollimore up in Rutora...I've passed the phone number to David Trevallion.
Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,169 Likes: 321
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,169 Likes: 321 |
I'll add this....we were shooting that muzzle loader on a Sunday afternoon. Several fathers had their sons out with them. They were taking videos of the loading of 5512...and I didn't know much about that...I'd pre-measured powder and shot into medicine size bags..so I didn't make a mistake. I think 3 or 4 kids fell in love with SxS muzzle loaders on that trip. It was supremely satisfying.
Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,456 Likes: 86
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,456 Likes: 86 |
eYe bet you felt like one of them tV celebrities....
yOu sign any audio graphs ?
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,308 Likes: 44
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,308 Likes: 44 |
]
yOu sign any audio graphs ? Snap chatted them a link to that Reilly thread. ________________________ 6 out of 9 kids start vaping after reading that.
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 638 Likes: 2
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 638 Likes: 2 |
The butt plug threads looked fine. There is a thin fault in the left butt plug - see the whitish area but it is not a "load bearing" area. I think the butt plugs look amazingly fine for a 170 year old gun: By the way Greg, another New Zealand on-line acquaintance called Robert Hollimore up in Rutora...I've passed the phone number to David Trevallion. That's good I could help. Robert is probably our last English trained gunsmith, and he is basically retired so I don't know what we will do now. The way things are going here I suspect sending guns to the UK for repair will be out of the question too, they wont let them back in! Interesting about the threads, perhaps they are so tightly fitted fouling simply cannot get in and cause corrosion. I would love to take mine out but am too afraid of causing damage, and it probably wouldn't tell me anything anyhow. GDU.
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Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,169 Likes: 321
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,169 Likes: 321 |
You could see the condition of the chambers but there are micolights and cameras that can do that sort of thing now. But if it still works, why try to fix it. (There was a commo guy friend of mine out in Africa whose motto was "We'll fix it till it's broke.") On mine, I just didn't know what I was getting into and didn't want to take a chance. Gene
Last edited by Argo44; 09/25/19 10:53 PM.
Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,456 Likes: 86
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,456 Likes: 86 |
If you ever looked down a pitted muzzle loader barrel with a bore scope you would most likely never fire it again....
Even with yer skally'wag Alabama up bringing.
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