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#552699 - 08/13/19 04:51 AM Re: Alex Henry 450 BPE double bullets [Re: mbatten]
Richard B Offline
Sidelock

Registered: 11/27/12
Posts: 83
Originally Posted By: mbatten
Richard:

It's #2311, remains in very good condition, and is under my good care in BC, Canada.

Cheers!

mbatten

Duh. Yes I have your details already - sorry !
_________________________
Alexander Henry Rifle Maker by Donald Dallas

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#552748 - 08/13/19 07:57 PM Re: Alex Henry 450 BPE double bullets [Re: mbatten]
Mike Rowe Offline
Sidelock

Registered: 02/04/04
Posts: 132
Loc: Arkansas.
OP I won't use smokeless because I've seen too many ringed chambers, the type of filler does not seem to matter.

Now we have the Olde Eynsford black powder, getting a BPE rifle to shoot is almost easy.

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#552767 - 08/14/19 10:47 AM Re: Alex Henry 450 BPE double bullets [Re: mbatten]
obsessed-with-doubles Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 01/27/03
Posts: 2760
Loc: USA
Hey, Mike.

What's a "ringed chamber" and how does smokeless powder cause it?

Thanks,

OWD
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#552792 - 08/14/19 07:46 PM Re: Alex Henry 450 BPE double bullets [Re: mbatten]
HalfaDouble Offline
Sidelock

Registered: 10/18/16
Posts: 69
Oversimplified but I'll give it a try. Because smokeless powders in the small amount necessary to produce BP equivalent pressures don't come near to filling large black powder cases, some shooters feel it is required to put a wad down on the powder to keep it at the primer end of the case or to fill the rest of the case with various and sundry fillers. You may recall that certain antitank projectiles have a small "shaped" charge which is not sufficient to blow anything up but will by focusing the shock wave of the explosion cut a hole right through the armor. The shock wave produced by powder levelly retained by a wad propagates up the case until the wad contacts the base of the bullet where the shockwave is deflected sideways against the chamber wall forming a ring in a chamber. This may happen on the first shot or increase through several shots until the case starts to stick in the chamber. If you'll look up Charlie Dell and chamber ringing you will find where he was able to do it even without a wad by shooting straight up. The key factor is that the powder had a level surface at a right angle to the axis of the case and had free length to propagate itself until encountering the bullet. Some fillers allow the propagation to happen and form a wad from the pressure. Using a wad but keeping it a small distance (say 1/8 inch) off the powder so that the powder's surface can be not at right angles to the bore is OK for some folks. Best to just use a powder that is easily ignited and just tilt the case up a bit when loading to let it mostly be towards the rear.

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#552794 - 08/14/19 07:54 PM Re: Alex Henry 450 BPE double bullets [Re: mbatten]
Mike Rowe Offline
Sidelock

Registered: 02/04/04
Posts: 132
Loc: Arkansas.
The way I've had it explained to me, is that there is a secondary pressure wave which bounces of the base of the bullet. Upon ignition, the air space (including whatever the "filler" is) will compress and push the bullet forward, but the compressed air and stuff wants to go back toward the breech face - remember, compressed anything is basically stored energy - and this meets the still rapidly expanding propellant gas charge causing a localized radial pressure spike, which creates a ring in the soft steel of the black powder barrels.
The ring is usually seen about where the base of the bullet would be - it is very slight, and not a bulge seen on the outside surface. Do it enough, and it'll cause extraction issues.
There are some who will say I'm full of it, but I was in this business a long time, and I've seen enough rings I will not use nitro for black loads.
Besides, black powder is easier to get to shoot, and easier to clean the gun.

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#552806 - 08/14/19 11:42 PM Re: Alex Henry 450 BPE double bullets [Re: mbatten]
Huvius Offline
Sidelock

Registered: 03/07/10
Posts: 125
Both of the above pretty well sum up the science of chamber ringing.
One thing I’ve always wondered about is just what types of bullets were utilized when ringing occurred.
My bet is this.
Since most nitro for black loads are used with full groove diameter bullets, I would think that the bullet, especially one of jacketed construction, would act as a momentary obstruction as it meets the rifling causing the pressure spike described above which is the obvious culprit in chamber ringing.
Has ringing been observed when using comparatively soft all lead projectiles?
Haven’t heard anything definitive about that.

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#552839 - 08/15/19 02:16 PM Re: Alex Henry 450 BPE double bullets [Re: mbatten]
obsessed-with-doubles Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 01/27/03
Posts: 2760
Loc: USA
Thanks, guys. I appreciate it.

So black powder it is...

OWD
_________________________
Good Gun Alerts & more:

www.DogsandDoubles.com

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#552841 - 08/15/19 02:30 PM Re: Alex Henry 450 BPE double bullets [Re: mbatten]
HalfaDouble Offline
Sidelock

Registered: 10/18/16
Posts: 69
You might say it is analogous to bulging a barrel by having one bullet stuck down it when another is fired. In this case the second bullet is like the "shockwave". In chamber ringing the shockwave is caused by the level surface of the powder perpendicular to the length of the case propagating (and intensifying) down the case. Having the bullet seated in the rifling is not a problem. This is a standard Scheutzen practice. The bullet is seated about 1/16 inch ahead of the case and often there is a wad at the mouth of the case to prevent the powder from spilling into the chamber on loading. No problems there because the powder is more or less angled along the length of the case and the burning is happening in more random directions.

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#552845 - 08/15/19 03:50 PM Re: Alex Henry 450 BPE double bullets [Re: HalfaDouble]
mbatten Offline
Boxlock

Registered: 05/03/16
Posts: 22
Hello:

Thanks to everyone for your observations and comments!

For those interested, Graeme Wright's "Shooting the British Double Rifle" (Ch. 6) discusses the 'chamber ringing' phenomenon as well.

Here are a couple of photos of the rifle showing the folding tang peep sight. I've yet to see another on a Henry double rifle. It is adjustable for elevation only.

https://s1243.photobucket.com/user/rmbatten/slideshow/

Also, this rifle has an interesting extractor mechanism. There are two angled prongs or cams threaded to the end of the extractor rod. These prongs fit into slots cut into the water table. When you open/close the action, these angled prongs cause the extractor rod to slide back and forth. Very simple and sturdy, but you have to carefully align them with the slots when assembling the rifle. You can see the left one in the photos as a thin, near vertical white line just behind and above the hinge pin.

Cheers!

mbatten


Edited by mbatten (08/16/19 03:55 PM)

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