doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Galand Paris marked german? single shot

I have not had much luck researching this rifle. It seems like a smaller martini style with a removable side plate.

375whelenIMP,
With the limited photos, we can't tell much. I can see it is Belgian proofed, not German. Tell us what you know about it, such as caliber, etc., and post legible photos of all the markings, including under the forearm, if any.
Mike

I have been unable to find the cartridge listed anywhere but it appears to be based on Austrian / Roth line of cartridges. Its a got .525 rim and about .450 Head diameter Very similar to 6.8x42r Tesching but for larger 9mm bullet (marked 8.8 on the barrel)

375whelenIMP,
The plot thickens, the rifle was proofed in Belgium, carries a French name, but the barrel seems to show German barrel makers marks. Raimey like to get more into the weeds with this type marks than I; maybe he will come into the discussion and confirm or refute my opinion. With just head and rim dimensions, together with bore( not groove or bullet) it wouldn't be possible to positively identify the cartridge. Guessing that you found the head and rim dimensions by measuring the rifle and knowing cartridge dimensions would have to be smaller, My first thought was" he can make cases from 303 Savage cases". The small("cadet" size) is limited as to the length of cartridges that will chamber. More or less short cartridges, from pistol length up to about 51mm at the very top limit would likely be what we are looking for. There is a class of 9.3 Express cases from 36mm to 82mm in length with smaller, but within reasonable limits, head and rim diameters than you gave. The 35,45, and 48mm lengths might be candidates. Under Miscellaneous Pre WW1 German Rimmed Cartridges, in Dixon's, there is a very interesting cartridge, called 9x51R Savage, which is the 303 Savage necked up to 9.08mm and is unknown in the US. It would be very tempting to say that is the cartridge we are looking for, but I am a little doubtful since it would be a bona fide hunting cartridge. I happen to have a BSA Cadet chambered for 35/30-30 Imp. It is very similar to the 9mm Savage, but it is necessary to reduce the rim diameter so they will chamber. I can't tell if the larger chamber and more cartridge taper would allow the savage to chamber or not. This would be another point against it. To ID the cartridge, it will be necessary to make a chamber cast and "slug" the barrel.
Mike

My measures come from the chamber cast, Its a very odd looking cartridge but I seem to have misplaced the casting. Comparing and searching the measurements in ECRA database I am pretty sure its made from the 6.5x53r family of cartridges made by roth as there are very few cartridges with that head and rim diameter.

ECRA data identifies 3 other cartridges by Roth 6.7x54r, 6.8x42r and 8.2x53r with the same head and rim diameters.

I know Galand of Paris was a well-known gunsmith but have seen little of the rifles he made or retailed in his shop.

375whelenIMP.
Since you had a chamber cast, did you record the case length and groove diameter of the barrel? I'm confused by your statement that it is a "very odd looking cartridge", it might help if you described how it looked odd. None of the cartridges you listed has a so called A base, so that is not likely it. If the 8.8 represents the bore diameter, then it couldn't be so steeply tapered as to look odd. It might be that odd to other people is not odd to me. Dimensions taken from a chamber cast represent the dimensions of the chamber, not dimensions of the cartridge. The diameters of the cartridge will be smaller than those of the chamber at the same location. This difference may be .005-.015" or even more on some cartridges. The nominal case length often differs more than this from the chamber length. This is why you have to consider all of them to ID the cartridge. You may not be able to positively ID the nominal cartridge, but that doesn't make much difference. As long as you can find or make bullets, you can load ammo for it. You can't buy ammo for it in the "MallMart", so you can call it what ever you want and still use the rifle.
Mike

I can make another cast when I find the time, but it was a short cartridge. http://www.cartridgecollector.net/9-x-36r-d-t-tesching
Looks about like this but most of short early targets cartridges I found are based off cases with much larger rims like .43 mauser etc.

375whelenIMP,
The 9x36R Tesching , shown as T17 in Dixon's European Sporting Cartridges was included with the "T" type Tesching cartridges, inspite of not having an "A Base", because the head and rim diameters are the same. This matches your memory of the chamber cast, and would be the type cartridge typical for a small Martini. Dixon shows the bullet as only 8.99mm diameter but black powder rifles often used a bullet smaller than groove diameter, counting on the soft lead bullets to "slug up" ahead of the black powder, sealing the barrel. Dixon shows it in use from 1880-1910, which roughly matches the rifle. I still believe you can make cases from 303 Savage cases( see Graf & Son) but since they would have to be significantly shortened, the necks would likely need reaming or turning.
Mike