doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com OT: Raising your own stock blanks

When I moved back to Montana after retiring in southern Oregon. I missed the easy access to Preslik's in Chico, CA where I bought stock blanks for many years. As a sort of joke on myself, I planted a Mayette nut in my front yard. To my surprise, it thrived. After 12-13 years the tree is 15 feet tall and 9" in diameter at the base. Last year my crop consisted of three walnuts, but this year the tree seems to have many. At 78, I'll let someone else harvest the stock blanks but look forward to not ordering my walnuts from far away.

Sometimes you feel like a nut

https://vegetablesofinterest.typepad.com/vegetablesofinterest/2007/08/franquette-waln.html

Sometimes you just go against common wisdom when you plant trees. My yard was full of huge red oaks from the early 1900s until Hurricane Gracie came through here and uprooted about 15 of them in the fall of '59. Over the years many more have died, and about 15 years ago we decided to replant some oaks. Having dealt with red oak leaf shed in the fall we decided to replant with live oaks. Folks told us that they grow so slowly we would never live long enough to see much size on them. Well, folks were wrong. On rainfall alone we now have live oaks with trunks approaching two feet in diameter. They are beautiful, and give total shade beneath. I've never seen anything make acorns like they do. I have raked them up and shoveled them into 5 gal. plastic buckets to haul off. I dump them in a little pond that woodies like. Never shot any over them, tho'. Might be considered baiting.

SRH

I want some valley oaks on my property and waited years for the local ones to produce a few acorns. Last September I gave up and collected some at Coyote Valley Sporting Clays, an hour away. I am now nurturing the seedlings, as well as madrones and big leaf maples I grew from seeds.

Stan, a former SC state game warden told me an account of flying over a lowcountry plantation marsh pond crowded with mallards. An on foot investigation found the surface covered with acorns with no trees in sight. On Christmas Eve, the family shot the pond and all were promptly arrested. Dick confronted the owner: "Sir, the pond is baited with acorns." "It better be. I paid my help to rake them up from under the oaks on the entrance road and put them in the pond. Please don't take the ducks. No one but me knew about the bait. The ducks are for our family's Christmas dinner. Dick's superior officer conferred with Dick, who told the old man the total for forfeiture bonds. The owner wrote a check covering the shooting parties' forfeiture bonds, and let them keep the ducks. Gil

["I have raked them up and shoveled them into 5 gal. plastic buckets to haul off. I dump them in a little pond that woodies like. Never shot any over them, tho'. Might be considered baiting."]

Mmmhuuuh. Just agreeing with you...Geo

Old GA political saying: "Never write anything you can say and never say anything you can wink."

I get Cherrybark Oaks from the state and plant them on my farm. I'm 71 years old. How's that for optimism?...Geo

I plant Maple trees for the fall color.
And I sugar the bigger ones.

Red, orange, yellow, purple, blush, and rust.

Big Sugar maples have magnificent yellow leaves come fall.

These best time to plant a tree is 15 years ago.
The second best is today.

Not optimism, Geo. You can't help it.

"A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit."

Greek proverb. You knew that!

"Wherevah you see a place of ugly, plant a bush, a tree, or a shrub." Ladybird Johnson

I'm planting/transplanting black walnuts at every opportunity. They won't be harvested in my lifetime. But, a couple of generations of care and there should be some good stuff!

DDA

I planted twenty five pecan trees when I was a kid. Only 12 of them are still alive today, but they are substantial. There were three different types and it has been so long I can not for the life of me remember what they were today. If you want to see squirrels (gray tree rats) in their glory, go there in September. I intend to take my grandson there squirrel hunting, when he turns five like my grandfather took me at that age. I even have a Remington Model 12 .22 like my grandfather had. If he likes hunting I'll leave him that section of woods so he can take is grandson some day. I'll even add a few more trees there for them to enjoy.

There is nothing like pecans to draw squirrels. Not to mention they are pretty tasty in and of themselves while you are waiting for the next squirrel to show up. I always liked hunting around pecans in the early fall in Georgia.

In the meantime, I have two giant slabs of crotch walnut drying in my barn loft right now. They came from a tree I cut in my lower pasture last winter. One day, it would be nice to have a rifle and shotgun stocked with wood from my own property.

KY Jon,
If you want to make a good deer hunter out of a kid, teach him to hunt squirrels.
Mike

Planting trees is a passion of mine on our property in Idaho. On our certified tree farm, which we manage for timber, I've planted American Chestnut, some almond and pecan trees. I planted a few hicans last year but they didn't make it. I'll attempt a few more when I have more time to take care of them properly.

Years ago I mentioned to my dad that he should plant some walnut trees for the wood, citing an article I read about the profitability after a certain number of years. His response "hell I won't live long enough to see them mature and who's going to take care of them. He didn't plant the numbers that I suggested but he evidently listened somewhat and planted 5-6 of the thin shell Carpathian variety. They're very large now and producing a heavy crop of nuts on a yearly basis and as a side note, he'll be 93 in a couple of weeks has lived long enough to harvest them if he cared to.

That's where the money is, Don. An Italian hopped on a plane to look at a black walnut in Ontario 20 years ago, paid $25,000 for it. They're planted by the acre some parts of Nova Scotia. My brother and I weren't successful; deer a problem.

I rip them out root and stem on all my properties.
Anywhere a squirrel buries one they sprout.
They ruin decks, window wells, and basement walls.
They poison the ground under themselves so nothing else can grow there as well.

Grow them where you don't want anything else.

Yum, pecan pie. Trees can be a connection to our past and our future. Honestly at my age few trees will grow big enough that I�ll ever see them harvested. But I planted 300 cedar trees on two of my farms because they make great Dove roost and nesting habitat. My sons and I have planted almost 50 walnut trees which we rarely even get a nut from. Besides picking out black walnuts is not a favorite pastime of mine. I even planted a couple Filbert trees because we had them on our farm when I was a boy.

The business side tells me to plant pine trees because they grow so quickly I�d most likely still see one harvest in my lifetime. The leave it in better shape for the next generation part of me tells me to plant trees for wildlife and family to enjoy. But if I get a couple pecan pies out of it I�ll be happy. And maybe a smiling grandson.

I have made a couple of shotgun stocks from walnut I sliced out of a stump off my dad's property which I now own. Guess that fits fairly well in the "raising your own stock blanks" category. Also made a couple of ukuleles from the same stump.

Sam, that's pretty interesting. Any chance of seeing a few pictures of the guns AND the ukuleles?

Friend of mine has 110 acres he lives on but does little with the property. It is about 80% forested. I turkey hunt on it. As I have come to know it over the last few years, I have found about 7 what I consider to be large walnut trees. 4' to 5' in diameter 1' off the ground. Several of them have many significant large branches (trunks?) splitting off from the base within the first 4'. And they all have very large limbs higher up.

He's said if I want to do the work I can have one....they are all in the forest and no one but he and I would ever know one got taken down. Does anyone know what specific attributes should I look for when trying to decide which tree??

There is some heavy equipment available as well as trails through the forest so getting the logs out is very doable. I just want to select the best one.

It depends on what you want to do with it. For lumber, straightness factors in hugely and fewer limbs are more desirable. Also, large limbs are often very unstable wood, so limb wood per se is not all that desirable.

SamW asked me to post some photos of his homegrown walnut. Pretty nice stuff and very nice work, but we gotta help SamW with his Paul Bunyan outfit...

If you're looking for figure, try to plan to get the stump out of the ground. The stuff that might be of most interest will look more like the chunk in Sam's picture than lumber. If you are starting to narrow choices down, see if you can figure out which ones were subject to the toughest and slowest growing conditions. It may not end up being on an easy trail. If you're doing it for fun, saw for maximum quality, not yield. Maybe, offer the odds and ends to woodworkers, like bowl turners, and don't worry about it if a bunch ends up as fire wood. Good luck with it.

Thanks Craig.....it's for fun and interest.

It has been so muddy here this spring I even got my chainsaw stuck! Sam, what gauge are those ukes? ;}

DDA

soprano gauge. The stump photo was in 1989 in AR. The wood cured over 20 years in UT. AR is not the best local for stock wood walnut...very porous wood.

The oldest black walnut trees in my part of the world are in old yards, where a house used to be, and may be chock full of nails and other things saw blades don't like. It seems to have been almost a given that a tenant house, or sharecropper's house, would have a walnut tree on the yard. They have the characteristic of emitting some odor or substance that drives fleas away. Maybe that is part of the reason for their popularity in yards of old. I have been told you could throw some walnut limbs, with green leaves, in a dog pen that is infested with fleas, and they would be gone overnight.

SRH

It matter knot whoz yard it grows in...

What matters for gunstock wood is it needs to be grown in a slow tree growth climate like Missouri or Californicatia.

Stan, when I was off to college, I came home one weekend to find wax myrtle limbs with leaves all over the house. Daddy's chihuahua had caught a dose of fleas and Mama had heard wax myrtle would drive them off. Quite a surprise!...Geo

George:

Did it work? You can't leave us hanging with a story like that.

Rem

When it comes to gun wood, I've learned the hard way that good stock blanks, " don't grow on trees". In Oregon, there's lots of walnut trees, both black and English. I cut three large trees without much material for stocks. By the time I found that out, I had a lot of money and labor invested.The climate seems to rule out finding gun stocks in them. The black wood tends to be very porous, and the English very bland. In Portland there's a large operation that cuts nothing but walnut. It covers more than an acre and has dozens of stacks of slabbed trunks. A small room is devoted to stock blanks, and I saw nothing there worth working on. Oregon just has too much rain to grow hard, dense wood. I was told that trees which take up much moisture from the ground have better color and texture than ones that absorb a lot of water through the leaves. Whether this is true, I can't say, but a hundred miles south into CA where the trees are irrigated, great wood was easy to find though expensive.

I went back to school thinking my parents had finally gone completely nuts, but they claim the fleas left; probably looking for a less third world kind of place to live...Geo

If gun wood is the objective there are plenty of websites and videos illustrating the best way to slice and dice. Google is your friend. Look at them before you put a tree on the ground. They may change how you do it.

SamW sent me a few more pictures to upload.

this time for a rolling block. Sam, what caliber is that rifle and will I be seeing it at Raton next week? I hope so.

So, did you carve those panels on the stock? And who did that engraving! They are both exquisite. I love those gold squirrels. We may be getting a bit into the weeds, but I sure would like to know a lot more about that rifle and why I've never seen it in person at Raton, that is a beautiful rifle and then some!

It is a 25-20. My engraving and my carving. Been a long time project that I hope to finish this coming winter. It is a Rem Number 1 1/2 carbine made about 1893 or 4.

Will you use it for anything besides paper punching, Sam? It is sure nice. No, not just nice ............... beautiful.

SRH

The plan is for my grandson to look his best while squirrel hunting on the same property the stock came off of.

Oh yeah, that will work! For sure. Great squirrel rifle, indeed, and maybe more.

In 1975, I began planting trees and shrubs on 26 acres of flax stubble. The planting was for all wildlife, not any particular species or group of species. As a sport hunter, I wanted flushed or running game to quickly get out of view, so planted in curves, with blocks of the woodies five rows wide and 150 feet long. I changed species at the end of every block for maximum �edge effect� that biologists say increases wildlife diversity. I began with 38 species recommended as hardy in North Dakota, and over the next 40 years planted 65 more species of trees, shrubs, and vines, a few hardy, but many listed as hardy only in more southerly areas. So far about 40% of those species have survived, even though as a few individuals. I also left three grassy openings in the plot, two for grassland birds and one for winter wildlife food.

Even though I lost many of the species to drought and animal damage, the wildlife response has been amazing. Breeding bird species increased from four in 1975 to 33 in 1999, and the number of breeding pairs increased from 13 in 1975 to 177 in 2008. Over the 41 years of surveys, 62 species of birds bred in the woodlot. Birds associated with shrublands and open woodlands showed the greatest increase; forest birds have always been rare, but have been increasing in recent decades. I�ve harvested quite a few deer and some upland game in the woodlot. One bad winter over a hundred whitetails survived there, stripping bark from trees up to four inches in diameter and leaving a browse line visible in the spring.

My black walnuts are about a foot in diameter now. At 82 and with bad eyesight, I don�t think I will be making any more gunstocks, but hopefully some day one of my trees will support the action of a firearm, of course preferably a double shotgun.

Hal, where did you do this? What part of the country?

Sounds like quite a place and the details you provide tell me that you are quite attached to it. Certainly, something special.

North Dakota. Had a pair of Wood Ducks last year, so total now is 63 species.

We published this information and you can find it here if interested:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication...akota_1975-2015

Hal, Good for you. I hope you've inspired a lot of other land owners to follow your example.

Just when I think the board has gone to hell, to the rescue come threads like this and posts by Sam and Hal. Amazing craftsmanship and stewardship. Gil

Back when our port directly imported bananas, folks would place rotting stalks of bananas under the house to ward off fleas. Gil

Exactly what I was thinking. There is still hope.

Yes, Sam and Hal's posts were very interesting.

And who could have imagined that rocky mtn bill could actually start a thread here in the main Doublegun forum that wasn't meant to bash Republicans, Conservatives, or our pro-gun President, Donald Trump?

Perhaps there is hope after all. By the way... Bill told us about this English Walnut tree several months ago in his post #541508:

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=530633&page=1

When I bought my current home about 33 years ago, I planted 6 black walnut trees. The state of Missouri Conservation Department sells packs of 6 starter saplings for about ten bucks. All 6 trees have grown well, and are about 15" in diameter after 33 years. My kids all live in other states; so when I pass the house will be sold. The next owner can decide on harvesting the walnut trees.

Had an old co-worker named Howard Thornesberry from Missouri. He said he once saw an old railroad track there that used black walnut for ties! He gave me a .36 Colt Skin for my cartridge collection.

Hal, that is a great thing you�ve done.

When I was in college, I had a summer job working for PennDOT. At the time, PennDOT was building several new Roadside Rests along the Interstates, and they gave a few of us the job of assembling picnic tables for the Roadside Rests. These heavy tables were all pre-cut and pre-drilled by convicts in the State Prison System, and most of the wood was Red Oak. But I noticed an occasional Black Walnut board, and had an appreciation for Walnut even then. I put aside Black Walnut pieces until I had enough to assemble a picnic table built completely out of Walnut. I spent extra time sanding it, and we had Spar Varnish to finish them. That was the most beautiful picnic table I ever saw.

Incidentally, this PennDOT job was a political patronage job that was given to me because my Mom was a local Democrat Committee-Woman, and I had to register to vote Democrat to get the job. At the time, several of my bosses there were under indictment for Bribery, Macing, Extortion, and Grand Theft. They were subsequently found guilty and sent to prison... where they may have been employed cutting out picnic tables or making License Plates.

The widespread graft and political corruption by the Democrats in my County shocked me. I realized that I never would have even been hired for this good paying job if I hadn't registered Democrat. I went back to the Court House and changed my voter registration to No Party Affiliation. I hope rocky mtn bill enjoyed this story of corrupt Democrats in action. They are so much more than simply anti-gun!

Keith it is not just Pennsylvania where that went on. Just south of there is Maryland. The stories I could tell you about nepotism, corruption and kickbacks would make you laugh or shake your head.

My father was offered the chance to fill out a term for Congress because the elected, serving, congressman was going to prison. Seems the "moron" decided to not accept cash gifts, so he had people mail checks to his office, like they were campaign contributions. He then cashed these and pocketed the money. Wire and mail fraud is what he copped a plea to.

My father had been a delegate to the 1960 Democratic convention. He hated Bobby Baker, who was Lyndon Johnson close buddy, a very shady person to say the least. When JFK put LBJ on on the ticket my father decided to change parties after the election. When the Governor offered him the job, as congressman, my father told him he was a registered Republican, to which the Governor replied we can erase that, as if it never happened and he could deny that it did. My father told him he would change back, but would not lie about it if asked. To which the Governor replied "Irving, you will never go far in politics if you insist on telling the truth". So my father told him to find another person and said he never regretted it a single day for the rest of his life, more than 50 years. I remember sitting in the room when my father passed up the job like yesterday. Where has time gone?

These are certainly shocking examples of deep political corruption. Imagine patronage! Ronald Reagan holds the current record for the most investigations, indictments,and convictions of his staff ( 138). That record will soon be broken by our hero in the WH. But what the hell? These guys are Republicans. We don't hold them to the same standards.

Whew, it's a good thing you're tollerant and inclusive of a bit higher standards for guns and rifles, eh Bill?

Craid, I do have high standards for guns and rifles. I can't bear Mossbergs or AR 15s.

Go figure. I can't say I've had the pleasure of owning either, but hopefully their owners aren't pre judged, eh Bill. Only in America, so far, do you have the right to bear them if you change your mind. How come you think your standards are better?

Bill, the person who can only afford a Mossberg has just as much right to Keep and Bear Arms as the person who can afford a room full of K-80s. Don�t be an elitist. It makes you sound narrow minded.

I don�t care if you don�t like the President, he is the President. Maryland has a lot of special favors and outright corruption, because it is a one party state. Any state which is dominated by one party, either party, becomes corrupt because they know they will never lose power and have a clear examination of their actions and books. After all why would one party want to ruins its reputation by indictments of their own former elected officials. So one hand washes the other hand, even if it�s with somebody�s else�s money.

What is the real difference between a .22 semi automatic, which hold 10-15 rounds and a AR 15 clone? If you are unarmed, the only difference is caliber. And at real close range even a lowly .22 can be deadly. For close quarters a shotgun loaded with large shot would be even more devestaing than a semi auto handgun or AR15. Want to duel with 12 bores at 15-20�? This selective right to a freedom is dangerous. It�s like Free Speech, as long as it�s PC speech. Who gets to decide that?

I have no opinion whatsoever about people who own these guns. I just don't happen to like the guns themselves, especially the assault-style ones. Events have made them scary to the general public and tarnished the image of all gun owners. I'm not saying this makes sense; it just happens to be the situation. If they didn't dominate the current gun scene, we'd project a less threatening image to the rest of the country. KY Jon, yes he is, and as long as he remains there, the country is in serious jeopardy. He gives the loose cannon a whole new definition.

If 'they' didn't dominate, 'we' would project the image of a doormat. Doormat is a synonym for living and breathing document, right Bill? Maybe, the image you'd insist on projecting is that of an old white drunk saying take your favorite double barrel and fire a couple rounds off in the air? Just your plain ole run of the mill loose canon, or is he a hands on type of toxic male?

Always interesting conversation Bill. I for one hope that I have a beater mossberg for sale when you have a few bucks burning a hole in your pocket and one of your lapses in standards flipped on.

Craig, I'd be tempted to buy a Mossberg from you just to make you feel good. The old NRA lie that any concession would lead overnight to total confiscation and a return to the Dark Ages is just what it is , a lie. The regulations on Class III weapons shows that regulation of some types of firearms works. Trump is toxic, no doubt, but the less he put shis tiny hands on the wheel, the better off we all are.

Bill, that old NRA canard is NOT a lie. There is no end to regulation until confiscation has been effected. Look at England. Look at Australia. Look at New Zealand. Look at Canada. The evidence is overwhelmingly against the position you just asserted.

And as a hunter/gun owner the only lies going on are the ones you tell yourself about how with just a little more regulation, all will be safe from the misuse of firearms and the anti gun faction will be satisfied.

CB, This is not England, Canada, or Australia or New Zealand. Those countries don't have our history, traditions, or constitution.However, since you brought them up, I'll just point out that their rate of gun deaths is a minute fraction of ours. Gun control works. Those countries are not totalitarian nightmares unlike Russia, North Korea, or the Phillipines, all countries whose leaders our President admires.I think how Americans feel about gun control has a lot to do with how close gun violence has come in their personal lives. My brother was shot to death in 1984. The teacher who was killed in the school shooting at Umpqua Community College in Oregon had been my student teacher a few years prior and a guide I fished with. All will never be safe, but we can do better. Not to try is stupid.

You may be able to do better but you don�t have a gun problem. You have a social problem. It always helps to solve problems by first acknowledging what the problems are.

Trying is understandable, especially with your personal connection to gun violence. It is the �solutions� put forward so often that seem stupid. Not the trying.

BTW it�s a social / mental health problem elsewhere as well. I just looked at the top 10 most wanted by Winnipeg police. Winnipeg is well on its way to recapturing the murder capital of Canada crown. More so far this year than all of last year. 9 of 10 were of native origins and most of those had obvious gang affiliation. Yet our government thinks the solution to gun violence is to further restrict the law abiding citizens who legally own and use guns responsibly.

In the face of idiocy, a certain amount of obstinance is required.

CB, What makes more background checks stupid? How could it be stupid to keep guys too young to buy beer from owing assault rifles? Yes, it's a social problem, but what makes it a problem is allowing misfits to get guns. Why can't we take steps to achieve just what we all want: guns owned by law-abiding citizens?

Background checks are meaningless as long as healthcare providers are barred from warning police and family members about mental health issues. HIPAA restricts mental health reporting to much. Go back and look at all these mass shootings. 2/3 of the shooters have serious mental health issues. Most were known but you can�t violate a HIPAA without running serious legal risks. Easier to not report. So all the red flags get ignored. No gun laws can be effective when you seal major information like this. Gun laws only stop law abiding people from breaking the law. Those who choose to break the law ignore them. And what is a minor jail sentence to someone willing to commit a mass shooting or rob a bank? Not even a consideration.

You gotta clear something up for me. You might entitle me to feel good about selling you a mossberg, but you turn around and claim feelings are for political weaponizing? Well wouldn't I feel short changed.

Sorry you've run into tragedies so close and personal to you. Since there was no crime and only law abiding use of firearms, do you feel subsequent gun control laws have done better, or not enough?

I have no idea of the stats, but I'd bet your great state ranks per capita near the top in the nation for recreational fully automatic weapon use, tactical rifle and handgun training, supressor use, heck all manner of game is taken at extremely long range with muzzle braked, synthetic machine shop wonders, right? Where's your state's gun crime come from, there or in the pockets of progressive, drug abusive, mental health wacked, dem. boondoggle hell holes?

Will you really feel better if the entire country is needy victims? Then, a cory or bern or kamala will unilaterally wave a magic wand and all will feel okay? Where do ya wanna take us Bill?

Just quickly Bill.

First, what is an assault rifle and how is it different from other rifles?

Second, beer and all liquor, in an unarguable way, impairs judgement. Drink a little bit and be slightly impaired. Drink a lot and be a lot impaired. Owning a gun does not physically alter one�s capability for making judgements. There is a giant difference between the two. Many here owned their first gun in their early teens. Quick show of hands....how many shot someone when they were a teenager?

BTW shooting someone on Uncle Sam�s payroll and instructions doesn�t count.

CB, You're not sounding as astute as you usually do, maybe a bit more like Craig. The point is that if beer and immaturity are not a good mix, immaturity and firearms probably aren't the best idea either. You and I both know what assault rifle means, even if it's only semi-automatic. It's the ability to shoot fast and at great length.The other difference is they automatically look menacing to the public. There's a reason for that. I know two people who shot others to death as teens, one accidentally, the other on purpose Teen- agers in this country are disappointingly willing to shoot people. Read the news.KY Jon, by all means, let's enable Drs to rep[ort them. C raig, there are fully auto guns here. They're registered and don't appear in shooting deaths. They're not confiscated either.

Thanks Bill, I think. I 'feel' like you're being evasive, you know, trying to read like you're reasonable, but no substance?

Asked again, and you can do better than that, where are you going with your anecdotes? The purposeful shooting may or may not be legal, and it's probably illegal to accidentally shoot someone. So, now you want to legislate the willingness to break the law? And, this will prevent what?

Let me expand on your example. Who taught these teens to be willing to shoot others? Their responsible parents or guardians, their mentors and role models, their teachers? Will it ever be possible for you to do an internal heart to heart, and decide not peddle your feelings on others when you haven't applied a little thought to them?

Most states have health care provider "mandatory reporting" requirements for domestic violence, evidence of physical, sexual or serious emotional abuse or neglect, self-harm, and for "a serious threat of physical violence against a reasonably identifiable victim", with protection for good faith reporting.
I've reported a school bus driver to the Mo. DOT who was proven to be using cocaine and heroin.
Scroll down about 1/2 way - past the "Counseling Patients about Firearm Safety" propaganda
https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/art...violent/2018-01

The problem of course is how does a provider decide if the threat is "serious".
I am not aware of a case in which a provider lost a suit for good faith violation of confidentiality, but as Jon said, it is easier (cowardly) just to not deal with it. But my Pediatrician sister reported a drug addict for child abuse and the addict threatened to kidnap and kill my sister's child. And health provider assaults and shootings by a disgruntled/mentally ill/angry patient are increasing markedly
https://www.modernhealthcare.com/providers/healthcare-workers-face-violence-epidemic

Shoot fast? A friend has a Remington hunting rifle from the 1940�s that qualifies.

Looks menacing?? Are you serious?? That is a reason to ban them??

I had a close friend die in a house fire when we were 19. He ran back in to get someone out. Should we ban house fires? I also had friends die in car accidents. When they were driving! Let�s get rid of cars. Far more people die from cars than from guns.

The truth is anecdotal experience is meaningless and statistics are not on your side Bill.

CB, Did I say ban? If we could ban house fires, I'd go with that. Cars are a possible parallel. There are requirements for their ownership and operation. The numbers of annual deaths, cars vs guns, are so close the difference doesn't matter. Suppose 18 year -olds had to have some instruction and pass an exam to own a gun. Suppose you had to be 21 to own an assault rifle. Suppose you had to pass a background check to buy a gun at a show. Nobody would be seriously harmed by such requirements. And they'd have some positive effect. I think many mass shooters are neither smart nor very resourceful. Just one simple roadblock would stop some. It's good to have discussions like this. Maybe someone will suggest something that makes a difference.

Bill you�re conflating gun violence with suicide by firearm. Big difference. Make guns harder to find and use, people kill themselves in other ways.

Criminal gun violence represents about a 1/3 of deaths as result from motor vehicles.

CB, You're right. I did forget the suicide factor. People inclined to kill themselves with guns are likely not so reluctant to take others with them. To the extent they're identifiable, let them do themselves in by some other means.

I don't know Bill, was it someone else that likes to throw around that word and "confiscate" to elicit knee jerk feelings? Still not you? Maybe, it was the folks that you campaign for around here? Hey great news huh Bill, MT wants legal pot, the gateway to blissful feelings, cure all for mental health woes, and the kind of MT we want for our grandkids, eh?

Did you just write, you don't care about other things, just focus on gun control?

2016 firearm homicide number was 11,004, FBI numbers. Deaths were caused by 65% handguns, 6% rifle and shotgun, the rest unknown or not reported as to type. Auto deaths for the same year 37,461, National Highway Traffic Safety Administration numbers. Real numbers, real difference. Pedestrian deaths 6,227 pedestrians were killed in traffic in 2018. Not that many less than by firearms and equal to those known to be killed by handguns.

And when you break down the numbers of drug related deaths are way worse. Drug related rime is a major part of all gun violence and that is business, not personal. Disputes over territory, crimes to steal drugs, or money from rivals, or shots fired to collect what is due, or payback for previous shootings. You don't go to court to get a judgement, in that trade, you go do it yourself. 8 out of 10 local homicides, in the last two months, have been drug related locally.

Over the same period there have been many, many more overdose related deaths. They just don't make the news. A gun related death is headline news, while a drug overdose death is so normal it does not even get mentioned. Overdose in 2017 claimed 47,600. More than cars and guns combined. But it's all guns the problem, to many, not drugs or cars.

If a war on guns was waged by the Federal Government and was as successful as the war on drugs we all would need larger safes to store our ever increasing gun collections. If you can not stop tons of drugs how are you going to stop them bringing in guns? What was seized last week a Billion dollars of drugs in Philly harbor? 35,000 pounds, or 15,876 kilograms. They put the street value of the drugs at $1.1 billion. A billion plus dollars worth. Criminals don't follow laws. Gun or drug laws are a joke to them. Make people with mental health issues unable to buy or posses guns and be done with it. Nobody else is going to follow stricter laws, except honest people and why should they be punished?

I'll bet you anything you want, there was not a billion dollars of illegal guns brought into this country last year. How many billion dollars of drugs were? Over a billion a week from Mexico alone.

Wow Billy, it didn't take much to get you to once again poison the waters with your insane anti-gun Democrat diatribes. I still can't figure out why you don't do this when you are communicating with your pals in the Classic and Custom Rifle forum.



Just for fun Billy, I'd like you to show us exactly where and when the NRA ever said what you claimed above. You know damn well this is another one of your lies, or at best, a gross exaggeration. But we all know that the anti-gun Democrats have never been satisfied with any concession or any new anti-gun legislation they manage to pass. We all know that they are always pushing for more restrictions on law abiding citizens. If they ever got the ban on semi-auto rifles they want, do you seriously think they will be happy and stop trying to ban handguns?

We know that you do not like AR-15's or the NRA. And we also know that more people are killed annually in the U.S. by hammers and blunt instruments than by AR-15's, AK-47's, and all rifles of all types combined, including Mossbergs and the rifles you like. But facts never meant much to you Billy.



I'm very happy to see that KY Jon mentioned the huge numbers of drug overdose deaths. According to the CDC, in 2016, there were more than 63,600 drug overdose deaths in the United States. This is more than the total of U.S. combat deaths for the entire Viet Nam war. A hell of a lot of those deadly drugs that are killing tens of thousands of kids are coming across the border that you anti-gun Democrats wish to keep wide open. But not a word from you about that death toll and carnage Billy. I wonder why??? And hey Billy, a lot more kids die from texting while driving than from school shootings. Perhaps you can tell us why anti-gun Democrats like you aren't pushing for restrictions on teen driving and teen cell phone ownership???

And speaking of restrictive gun laws in foreign countries, could you explain this to us Billy???...

The U.S. has over 300 million guns and a 2012 murder rate of 4.7 per 100,000. Russia has only 13 million guns, and a 2012 murder rate of 9.2 per 100,000. So we have 23 times as many guns, and a murder rate about half as high as Russia. It would seem that the problem is cultural rather than due to the availability of guns. And we know that violent crime is worse in places like Detroit and Chicago that have been under Democrat control for decades. I'd bet that a ban on Democrats would save a lot more lives than a ban on AR-15's... without even considering deaths of unborn babies.

A ban on democrats, African Americans, Latinos, and previously convicted gun crime violators would take the gun problem down to about zero. However, as we know, that isn't going to happen, never will. In Maryland last week, two gun stores were burglarized, one perp killed by police. One of the perps shows up on the Maryland Case Search website as having been arrested less than a month before the burglaries for "gun in car", "gun on person", "loaded gun on person", "gun in possession by a previously convicted felon" "CDS possession over ten grams" "CDS distribution with gun" and other miscellaneous charges, yes, in May of 2019, the month before the burglaries. He was released the day after he was charged to allow him to burglarize two gun stores and get his buddy killed. What kind of crime would keep a Maryland perp incarcerated for more than a day? I won't mention race, but you may guess. I feel that the mention of race is OK because honest people of any race would be disturbed at the criminal behavior of those of their race. Equal rights is alive and well here also, one of the perps being a female, although identities are not mentioned when juveniles are involved.

Rocky Mountain Bill is without a doubt sick in the head....

jOe, re gun control, dont think bill is sick in the head...more like he is suffering from a wounded heart...european style gun control works for them...not for us...

as for trump, bill like many others, dont get it...like in "the apprentice", president trump is entertaining and distracting us, with daily drama...its all about ratings...if you are watching, trump wants to make sure it is him you are watching and not somebody else...

and with his daily show, trump is also manipulating his enemies into believing that he is something that he is not...trump knows that one of the ways to control large numbers of people, is to set them up, so it is easy for them to believe what they want to believe...

if one wants to really understand donald trump, read his books...
and then ignore most of what he says as pres, but do pay close attention to what he does...

So mr. ed, explain what you see about his actions. Not about acting mind you, but about his policy and their results. It's clear he makes it easy for Bill to feel the way Bill wants to, is that America's problem or Bill's?

America has some serious problems, none of which involves the gun.

You've nailed the key aspect of Trump's presidency Ed. He's actually getting stuff done, while distracting the talking heads with the lunacy. Unlike his Hope and Change predecessor, who was loved by the pundits and was useless as a chief executive.

WAY too broad a brush Bill. The school and houses of worship shooters have been predominately Anglo. And as a % of the population, Latinos are serving disproportionately in the military.

The ban we need is of criminals walking the streets, esp. criminal aliens (disproportionately Latino) and repeat offenders (disproportionately African-American), and of those who enable them to do so. How about we ban fatherless children raised in poverty by drug addicted baby mamas while we're at it?

School and house of worship killings are a blip on the gun death scale. And what does percent of a certain group serving in the military have to do with the overall crime rate of that group? A ban on criminals walking the street is a "no go" for our judges and politicos. Obviously, putting convicted criminals in jail would solve a lot of the problem, but it isn't going to happen.

If you look at crime numbers they tell an interesting story. Blacks are much more likely to be a victim of black crime than whites even though whites are the majority. It�s black on black because they have vastly more contact with other blacks. Drug shootings are almost always same race shootings. I guess blacks deal mostly with blacks, Latinos with Latinos and whites with whites.

Gun control is a phony cure for other real problems. You can�t stop drugs, which are the real cause of so much crime, so you go after the guns to claim just eliminating guns, will reduce crime. It won�t. You would be afraid of a gun pointed at you, how much less afraid will you be of a knife when again you don�t have a gun or even your own knife?

Eightbore, in 1993 I walked into a connivence story hold up. I backed out, unseen and stoped the robber when he left the building. 12 bore at 15 feet. Perp was arrested when Baltimore police showed up five minutes later. Handgun use in armed robbery were the charges. In the end, they plea bargained it down to misdemeanor, time servered and threw out the handgun charge. That alone was an automatic 5 year prison term. But not when they plea bargain. Kid was out in less than four months with not even a felony conviction. Always wondered if they gave him back his gun? Typical Baltimore city justice system outcome.

Gun laws only work,to any extent, when they are enforced. And we have thousands which are for show only because if they were seriously they would make them much simpler and strictly enforced. Commit a crime with a gun gets you ten years automatic prison time. Wound anyone, 15. Robbery with a gun 25 years. Kill them life or fast track death penalty. My favorite. Two years after conviction you will be put to death. Those gun laws would be more effective in my opinion.

Wow is this thread off track!

Drew, Both Obama and Trump said their priority was deporting alien criminals which I think makes good sense. Both have caught a bunch of them. The current influx from south of the border seems predominately ordinary people trying to escape unlivable conditions. Saying that probably brands me a bleeding heart. Part of the divide here is that my experience is mainly rural. I realize there are many urban communities with problems I haven't seen first hand. A great deal of those problems though would gradually fade if people there had access 1) to jobs that pay a living wage, and 2) decent educational opportunities. The jobs need to come first. Ps: What does this have to do with planting trees? There is a connection. Planting trees and investing in run down communities are both acts of faith in a future we may not live to see but which we believe need our support.

we have been letting poor people from cultures different than our own into this country for a long time now...like since the 1840's when the first waves of irish and germans made their way here as best they could...back then, it was work or die...poor immigrants took what jobs they could find for the wage they could get...their educational opportunities were look, listen and learn by doing... and certainly not by sitting in some class room listening to some one pontificate about ditch digging or horse poop pick up...they found jobs that no one else was willing to do...and they did the work without complaint...

it is now 2019, not 1849...they are not from ireland or one of the german states...they are mostly from central america...

other than the time and the place of origin, nothing else has really changed...

Too funny, eh Bill?

So, which is it this week, do you want us stuck in yet another foreign money pit nation building quagmire, or will you flip to being a faux fiscal responsibility warrior?

Have you considered how many printing presses would get worn out cranking out cash to compete with the sanctuary state kali, among other vacation destinations? College, ocare, ID's, food stamps, project housing, welfare checks all free, free ,free, right? I can't wait for the needle resistant wader shortage when kali starts handing them out for free to navigate tent city sewage.

Do you really mean 'unlivable conditions', or does kidding yourself make you feel better without breaking a sweat?