doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Last call for frame and barrel samples

Thanks to the generosity of several here, I'll be making another run to METL for composition analysis of frames and analysis and tensile testing of barrel segments.
I've got these frames:
1890 Early Hunter Arms Fulton �Transition� L.C. Smith Hammerless
1892 New Ithaca (Hammer) Gun
1900 Remington Hammerless Model of 1900
1909 L.C. Smith 00
c. 1927 Crescent Empire No. 60

And barrel segments for composition and tensile testing
Pieper fluid steel (it has been reported that Pieper used Cockerill steel)
"Cast Steel" (likely Decarbonized)

If you have something to contribute, please send an email to drewhausemd@yahoo.com and we'll see if it is something not already tested.
Thanks and the results should be interesting. Several sources suggest turn-of-the century frames were AISI 1020.

Summary of the previous barrel studies are here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cvqRzkg0wEjhAAcFWr8gFi7aPFRsSIJ_hahfDxmrNAU/edit

Off to METL this morning after shooting at Ben Avery. Wind is blowing like Kansas and it should be interesting with my crappy thin damascus barrel farm implement 16g Smith and 3/4 oz. handloads
Thanks again to the contributors!

Results are in. Here are the barrels

Post-1893 unknown Belgian maker �Cast Steel�
Non-standard 1002 Very Low Carbon Steel with high Phosphorus & Silicon - 53,000 psi
(This is slightly less than the average of the Pattern Welded samples)

Unknown date of manufacture Pieper Eclipse, likely Cockerill fluid steel
Non-standard AISI 1030 with high Phosphorus & Manganese - 99,500 psi

FRAMES

No way around the "not the best" steel Hunter Arms was using, likely sourced from Sanderson Bros.

c. 1890 Hunter Arms Fulton �Transition� L.C. Smith Hammerless and 1909 L.C. Smith No. 00
Both were non-standard but similar to Bessemer Resulphurized (very high Sulphur) AISI 1109 Low (.09 & .12%) Carbon Steel.
The industrial standard tensile strength for non-heat treated 1109 is 56,000 psi

Plans & Specifications of the L.C. Smith Shotgun by William S. Brophy contains an undated but likely post-1913 Materials Specification chart indicating �AISI 1020 Carbon Steel� for the frame.

c. 1900 Remington Hammerless Model of 1900 -
Bessemer Rephosphorized Resulphurized AISI 1211 Low Alloy Low (.08%) Carbon Steel
The industrial standard tensile strength for non-heat treated 1211 is 75,000 psi

c. 1892 New Ithaca (Hammer) Gun -
AISI 1015 Carbon Steel

c. 1927 Crescent Empire No. 60 -
Non-standard AISI 1015 Carbon Steel with low concentrations of Nickel (.05%) and Chromium (.08%)

The Southern burst barrel just arrived. The report will be on the LCSCA site and I'll post a link when something is up.

Nothing in that brazing looks good to my untrained eye.

And what will we learn from knowing what grade of steel was used in various shotgun frames? It might really mean something if they were all of the same design. But we are seeing an apples to oranges comparison. Design probably has much more to do with frame failures in shotguns than the materials used to build them... which is why I respect Ted's observations that Tobin frames stretch due to having too much meat machined out of them.

Brass frames are perfectly adequate for some firearms within design limts. The current Henry Big Boy Cassic has a brass frame and is chambered in .44 magnum and .357 magnum. With proper design, polymer frames with minimal steel reinforcement are working quite well in many handguns generating higher chamber pressures than the average shotgun.

Can't access this- I need some sort of permission.

bczrx: that happens occasionally and I don't know why.
Go to the Home Page
https://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowledge.com/www/home
then scroll down to "Barrel Failure Analysis & Metallurgical Evaluation"

METL I know- but how did Ben Avery feel after being shot at?? How do you get such volunteers for your R&D projects. I have a "beat-up" 12 gauge OO grade stripped receiver- the series with the crosswise milled out slot for the rotary caming extractor design- but I see you have one- also, why do you refer to Smiths as farm implement Smiths- are yours done up in John Deere green and yellow? strange stuff out in Kansas: Dorothy and Toto- The Clutter family in 1959 "In Cold Blood"-- and one of the best ballad songs ever- "Dust In The Wind" great finger-pickin' guitar work blending with the fiddles-- RWTF

I fixed the access issues on the website

July 1, 1920 American Machinist published an Ordnance Salvage Board Surplus Property Sale of almost 75,000 pounds of �Spec. Shape Gun Steel� from the A.H. Fox Gun Co. with C .15-.25%, Mn .5-.7% and S & P < .06% - AISI 1020 and likely frame steel
https://books.google.com/books?id=ezRMAQAAIAAJ&pg=RA1-PA409&lpg

Thanks again for your efforts, Doc Drew!

Drew is educating me. I didn't know anything about 95 per cent of this, having hard time hoisting aboard technicalities. I am grateful for what I'm reading.

Wrong thread Frank.

Dropped off a c.1929 Fox Sterlingworth action and barrel at METL this am. The machinists had tears in their eyes again

Just think...you might have saved someones life, limb or eyeball.

Your money might be better spent on magnaflux testing.

Yeah jOe... this thread is concerned with the virtual non-issue of shotgun frame composition. It is a virtual non-issue because the design of the frame probably has as much or more to do with the rare problems of cracking and stretching than the type of steel they were made of. Heat treatment or lack thereof is another variable that would have to be considered to arrive at any valid conclusions. It might be more interesting and educational to experiment with different steels to see what effect different compositions have on the outcome of case hardening colors. Lots of variables to consider in that process too.

Other than that... this subject has far less practical usefulness than threads on hinge pin lubricants.

Thanks Doctor...fascinating...and good solid work. I'm learning. a bunch.

Just for perspective, AISI 8620 is a chromium, molybdenum, nickel alloy steel often used for modern shotgun frames, and is easily carburized and machined when annealed
Carbon - .18 - .23%
Manganese - 0.7 - 0.9%
Chromium - 0.4 - 0.6%
Molybdenum - 0.15 - 0.25%
Nickel - 0.4 - 0.7%
Phosphorus - 0.035% max.
Sulfur - 0.04% max

Nice short version regarding the components & alloys
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/21-chemical-elements-effects-steel-mechanical-properties-jeremy-he/

The Hunter Arms frames had a very high Sulfur concentration, which improves machinability but lowers transverse ductility.

Results are in

c. 1929 �Sterlingworth Fluid Compressed Steel�
Carbon .44%
Manganese .79%
Phosphorus .027%
Sulphur .038%
Nickel .04%
Chromium .03%
Molybdenum <.01%
Vanadium <.01%
AISI 1040
Tensile Strength psi
86,000 psi Yield...103,000 psi Ultimate

The Sterlingworth action was non-standard AISI 1020 with low concentrations of Chromium (.08%) and Nickel (.07%) compatible with the Ordnance Salvage Board steel listed above.

This might be of interest to the Fox fellas, and feel free to post on the Forum.

Drew,

Have a 12ga Flues frame here. Cracked at the junction of the watertable and standing breech.

I need some parts from it for another Flues, but I don't need the frame.

Yours if you want it. I don't check in here regularly so you can email me at: Marksman60@hotmail.com

EDIT: Missed your email in your opening post. Will send you an email .

The "Southern" blow up 1908 Hunter Arms �Armor Steel� barrel is non-standard AISI 1018 with slightly high phosphorus and sulphur. It was not tensile tested.

Drew:

For those of us who couldn't buy a clue when the subject is metallurgy, what does that mean in terms of strength/barrel integrity?

Thanks.

Rem

A long version is here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dnRLZgcuHfx7uFOHvHCUGnGFiLiset-DTTEK8OtPYVA/edit

Summary of �Cold rolled� barrel steel tensile strengths. All can be heat treated for different applications (rifle receivers) to much higher strength, and yield strength matters also.
AISI 1005: 40,000 psi
Twist and Crolle Damascus: about 55,000 psi
Winchester Standard Ordnance and other "cold rolled" Bessemer/Decarbonized steels and AISI 1020: 60,000 psi
c. 1900 �Fluid Steel� (Siemens-Martin & Krupp Open Hearth Steel AISI 1021-1034): 75,000 � 85,000 psi
AISI 1140: 85,000
Krupp Fluss Stahl (Homogeneous Fluid Steel) was introduced about 1890 and by reported composition was similar to AISI 1045: 85,000 psi.
AISI 1040 (and modified), Bohler �Blitz�, 4140 Chrome Moly (not used until after 1930s): 95,000 � 100,000 psi
Winchester Nickel Steel and Marlin �Special Smokeless Steel�: 100,000 � 105,000 psi
Remington Ordnance Steel: 110,000 psi
Krupp �Nirosta� (1912 patent NIchtROstender STAhl 21% Chromium / 7% Nickel Stainless Steel introduced in 1913): 114,000 psi
Winchester Proof Steel (probably AISI 4340) introduced in 1931 for the Model 21: 115,000 - 120,000 psi
Krupp Spezial Gewehr Lauf Stahl / 1895 �Special Gun Barrel Steel�): 138,000 psi
Bohler �Antinit� (Rostfrei Laufstahl chrome-molybdenum-vanadium introduced 1912): 138,000 psi

Phosphorus increases strength and machinability, but can embrittle steel, esp. if cold (ie The Titanic).
Sulfur increases machinability, but if high Sulfur/Manganese ratio leads to Manganese Sulfide inclusions.
Nickel & Chromium increase corrosion resistance and hardenability.

I think we have good data that the Belgian produced "rough forged tubes" used by U.S. double gun makers prior to WWI were mostly AISI 1018 - 1030, possibly rephosphorized, with Decarbonized Steel on lower grades.

Modern alloy steels are harder with greater corrosion resistance.

Turn-of-the-century U.S. maker barrels were proved at 15,500 - 17,500 psi and were designed for shells with pressures similar (and the 1 1/4 oz. 3 1/2 Dr. Eq. Smokeless Powder greater) to today's loads.

Ordinary steel is a mixture of iron & carbon. Steel does not generally respond to hardening until around 30 points of carbon are reached.

30 points = .3%. Thus for every 100 lbs of iron, there would be about 4.8 oz of carbon. With a 20 point steel, there would be about 3.2 oz of carbon per 100 lbs of Iron.

Annealing, Normalizing, Hardening, etc are all forms of Heat-Treating. These barrels of 20 points or less of carbon "May" have gone through some form of heat-treating, but they were not "Hardened".