doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com A Family Photo Album - Baker G&F Co.

The New Baker went through several changes during it's production. Top: An early top bolted gun. Middle: A Model 1896. Below: A Model 1897.

Alphabet Guns. Top to Bottom: Models A, B, & C.

Baker Boxlocks. Top to Bottom: Two variants of the Model C and a Baker Standard, circa 1915.

Top to Bottom: A late production Model A, Model R and an early Batavia Leader.

VERY Nice
Thank you for showing
Mike

Top to Bottom:. A BG&F Co Batavia Leader. A Folsom era Batavia Leader. A BG&F Co. Black Beauty.

Thanks, John. That Black Beauty has a certain charm.

The Folsom Batavia Leader cyanide case hardening ................ original?

SRH

Stan, As far as I can detect the colors are case and original. The Black Beauty is a light weight 26" gun. Very quick swinging. Maybe Daryl will come along and add specifics.

John, congrat's, that is a very nice display. Thanks for your efforts. The Black Beauty is a fine example of that Grade, especially since , at the time, it was Baker's low price leader at around $20. It still had a wonderful finish as you can see. I think they called a Black Oxide finish. I believe Doug Tate wrote an article in Shooting Sportsman about the black finish guns that were more popular during that period. The Tobin black finish was called Pyro Oxide if my memory serves me correctly.

Your group of New Bakers is a good teaching lesson. Do you have examples of the earliest New Bakers from about 1887 to 1991 ? Different mechanisms, of course.

Stan, your observation of the Folsom Leader's case colors being "different" is proper. When Folsom took over the gun making portion of Baker Gun and Forging in 1919, they offered the Leader with very prominent case colors differing from the Baker Gun and Forging charcoal colors. I do not know if the new colors were cyanide or some other process, but they were incredibly bright and durable colors. Many worn Folsom Leaders still have much of that original case color. The Folsom higher grades had the Black Oxide finish, up to and including the De Luxe which was the highest grade.

Wonderful collection of very high condition guns John, and thank you.

A c. 1915 Baker boxlock with a straight receiver, late Baker ejector system & late safety button

Although technically all brown or blues are oxides the term Black Oxide most often references the hot salt method rather than rust bluing/browning. I can't say for positive if this was what Baker used on the Black Beauty or not. They would not have used it on the barrels unless they had the ribs & all brazed rather than soft soldered.

Most cyanide hardening I have seen has more of a "Zebra" stripe appearance to it than this Folsom Leader but perhaps they were able to get a different effect using it.

I have a 16 gauge Black Beauty, though not as nice as this one. It has 28" barrels, tight chokes & @ 6 3/4 lbs is not a lightweight but a nice shooting gun never-the-less.

What a great group of Bakers. One of the more underappreciated makes in my book. Thanks for sharing.

Very nice collection and presentation.
Karl

Lots of the more modern cyanide case hardening results in the striped appearance you speak of. I don't much care for it, personally. The earlier methods using it didn't seem to result in that as often, IMO. A.H. Fox guns that were "cyanide cased" don't exhibit striping, that I have ever seen. The Fox cyanide colors have a mottled effect. The process also seldom results in the "halos" or "borders" of lighter colors as does charcoal pack case hardening. Most Fox guns encountered which have any color left are cyanide colors, as the bone charcoal process was discontinued by Fox around 1916, in the opinion of many Fox experts.

This Baker is attractive to me, as far as cyanide casing goes.

SRH

Stan;
I fully agree. I do not care much for the striped colors though this Baker looks great as well as those Foxes you mention. I had not realized Fox had switched from Bone to Cyanide that early & did not realize all those guns were in fact Cyanide colored. Thank for the input.

A lot of L S Starrett tools, as well as Savage/Stevens doubles & singles, use the Striped Cyanide colors & this was my primary thinking on them.

My MX8 is striped vertically. For a man to have designed and built a gun as fine as Danielle Perazzi did, he sure had poor taste in some areas of cosmetics, IMO. But, the way the old gal shoots, I can ignore the gaudy "makeup".

I have always had an attraction to the "funeral guns". I'll bet that Black Beauty is stunning in person.

SRH

Thank you very much Daryl.. You were a great help on my pursuits. My Black Beauty was listed on GunBroker as a Baker four-ten. It sold cheap and arrived with a pair of Savage "Four-Tenner" inserts. The 12 ga bores are as new. Win/Win!



I am still looking for examples of the early New Baker with the under bolting, both Syracuse and Batavia.

In reference to the Case colors: I normally don't like the effect of cyanide patterns or colors on the early American doubles but Folsom was doing something right. I have not found any Crescents that I would compare to them.

Thank you to all that have given kind words. It has been a marvelous journey and so much more to learn.

John

2-piper, I also think of the vertical striping of the colors when I see reference to cyanide colors. Below are an N.R. Davis and an Andrew Fyrberg with distinctive cyanide colors.





It would be interesting to know the process that was used on the Folsom Bakers.

John

Really nice photos showing the evolution of the guns by that maker. Exceptionally instructive.

Thanks

It has long seemed to me that Folsom's Batavia Leaders have the longest lasting case colors. Much better than Field Grade Smiths.

Drew,

I do not yet have an example with the straight back frame. All that I have seen have ejectors and I believe are referenced as the Baker Ejector. I can not tell from the pictures, but does it use cocking rods through the frame to cock the hammers and trip the ejector sears? I have the sideplated, Batavia Ejector, that appears to have the same forend/ejector system. It has cocking rods through the frame. Daryl?

I'm sorry John but the images are all that I have, and I think Researcher found that one.

At John Eurom's request, here are some of the earliest New Baker Models.

New Baker #33 made by Syracuse Forging Co. but unmarked as to Maker. ca. 1887-1888


Special New Baker from Syacuse. Unmarked as to Company. NSN, Ca. 1888



New Baker by Syracuse Forging and Gun Co. , Syracuse, N.Y. #2179 ca. 1888


New Baker #4982 Syracuse Forging and Gun Co. , Batavia, N.Y. ca 1891

Daryl, Thank you for adding these early examples to this thread. I will keep looking for an early example of a New Baker, preferably a Syracuse built one. Were there mechanical differences between the Syracuse vs Batavia mfg'd guns other than the under bolting changing to top bolted? I notice all three of your examples have the Baker Forging & Gun Co label. Did the name change to Baker Gun & Forging Co. coincide with the introduction of the Hammerless models ca.~1892?

Also, not to nit-pick but in reference to New Baker #33, you listed the dates as ca. 1877-1878. I am thinking maybe 1885-86, after the return from Ithaca Gun Co.

Thank you as always,

John

Drew,
I keep returning to the photos of the flat framed boxlock (Baker Ejector?) you posted as it is much different than any of my other Baker models. Looking at the barrel lug there is no cocking bar, nor cocking hook, nor check hook. My Baker Standard has the same barrel lug. It uses cocking rods, very much like a Crescent, but with no solid check to keep it from opening too far. Maybe caused by wear at the forend iron where it engages the rods?

The other difference I see is the top bolting of the flat framed gun. It has what appears to be a round "Greener" type bolt. Yet the bolt does not extend out the left side of the frame when open. ???

If anyone has an example of one of these flat framed Boxlocks please post up pictures.

Thanks, John

John, you are correct. I typed the wrong dates for the first picture. Sorry for the confusion. From the information I have the first gun is from late 1887 or early 1888. I will correct the post.

I believe the name Baker Gun and Forging Co., Batavia, came just before the introduction of the hammerless models in 1892. The article by myself and Bill Furnish in Double Gun Journal should have those dates .

All of my examples should be from the name Syracuse Forging Co., or Syracuse Forging and Gun Co. , Syracuse , NY, or Syracuse Forging and Gun Co. , Batavia, NY. Was it about 1891 that the Company Name became Baker Gun and Forging Co. , Batavia, NY .

The Batavia Ejector, ca.1908-1911, could be had with Damascus or Fluid Steel barrels.






The Batavia Ejector did not use the sliding cocking bar or the pinned hook found on other Baker models. It was fitted with cocking rods through the frame that were acted on by rollers in the forend iron. A ledge milled into the frame tripped the ejector sears on opening only if the cocking rod is forward.





The standard top bolting was retained but a check hook was added to the barrel lug to keep the barrels from opening too far. This check hook also activates the extractors on an unfired chamber(s).




One other difference on this model is the forend attachment. The standard Baker J-hook has been replaced with a sliding roller latch. The forend barrel lug reflects this change.




Hope this has not been a bore,

John

John, I notice Drew's picture of a boxlock is in the 42,000 serial range. That range from maybe some 38,000 guns through 49,000 contained many guns that were made up from "parts on hand" Could be a mixture of models on one gun. One cannot bank on those guns being representative of particular models. Drew's gun seems to have the 1909 Paragon cocking hook, and maybe the ejector is the same or similar.