doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com OT: Notre Dame de Paris burning

Notre Dame is burning to the ground. From Paris we just received an email saying the lead roof has melted and there is a boilings mass of molten metal on the floor at 500 degrees Celsius. The Patrimony of a country is destroyed. It is a tragedy.

After surviving centuries to be damaged by a refurbishing accident as they are saying, is truly a tragedy. I understand that firemen are in the building trying to save what they can. Our prayers for their safety.
Karl

This is heartbreaking and I'm not even Catholic. When the news came on the first thing I thought of was Prof. Edward Marti, he taught History of Building when I was in school. I know he would be heartbroken too, if he were still living. My wife and I visited it when we lived in Germany, it was breathtaking. I was upset that they didn't seem to be doing much to put it out at first. Now I can see why the authorities wouldn't let firefighters in with molten lead raining down everywhere. It just cannot be replaced.
Mike

Latest from Paris....they now think the walls won't collapse and that the two towers are out of immediate danger.

A ton of history was destroyed. It sure seemed that the response was lackluster. It amazed me to watch it spread from the first footage, looked like a good two hours before a boom ladder was set up and pumping water.

Unfortunately, many old structures like this fall victim to fire in "renovation", lost a cathedral in my city that way.
Is the fact of "old and valuable" treated too lightly??

A "refurbishing accident"? I can't imagine the insurance situation. OK, now it's over, sort of.

With the Muslim population of Paris being what it is, I'm thinking suspiciously...
JR

You read my mind....


Best,
Ted

Mine too! They have had a number of terror attacks and this does look suspect. I hope that the remodeling report isn't false.
Karl

This is about the 6th or 7th Church in France that has been set afire and the second incident at Notre Dame. The first was stopped by the police when a car full of Muslim extremist had gas cylinders they were planning to set off. We will have to wait for the verdict, but I am not very optimistic about the renovation story.

I'm thinking along the same lines as you guys. I don't think this was just another accident. I hope I am wrong.

I agree- what renovation in a stone and mortar building would require a contractor to employ a cutting torch? The Muslims are becoming experts at destroying buildings, as we found out on 9-11 in NYC-- Just as the Japannese became experts at shallow water torpedeos vis a vis Pearl Harbor 1941. Even if the bearing outer walls remain somewhat intact (unlike the Twin Towers) future usage of the Cathedral may well be unsafe-- And as the Cathedral is the most often visited site by tourists in Paris, even outnumbering the Louve, the terrorists are experts at "blending into the mileu__ and not raising suspicion. My money says- terrorist attack- well planned as well.

French wife is furious and convinced that at Easter Time, with usually only the most competent of French workers allowed to work on "Patrimony" building, something nefarious happened. Once it started though, with a huge building full of air...no fire doors possible in an interior 13 stories tall, oxygen would quickly create a mini firestorm. Macron is such a product of the Grands Ecole and the French State is so centralized, she's convinced that even if it were a terrorist attack, there will be an effort to cover it up.

No fire investigator will be able to discover the cause through forensics...but there should have been workers at the site when the fire started. Somebody saw something.

Very suspicious. A number of French churches have been vandalized or set on fire in the past year. I don't expect the truth from the authorities.

It is a terrible tragedy.

My wife says there was some large amounts of lead in the building for some reason (not just for stain-glass windows) and the renovations were dealing with it. So I suppose some heat source could have been needed to cut or shape it. Hard to say. I'll wait until there has been a thorough investigation before I start accusing anyone of anything. I'm strange that way.

The fire is reported to have started some time after 6:00 PM local time. I would doubt if there were any construction/renovation type workers around at all, unless they were off the clock.

I haven�t seen a single accusation, only suspicions, that will be investigated, posted here. I find it strange that someone would expect an unbiased investigation to come out of a tragedy of this magnitude.

Lead was used in the roofing of the structure, by the way. No doubt it was once a great material for that task, likely pass� for that today, for a variety of reasons.

Best,
Ted

viva la france...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM-E2H1ChJM

Though it would be easy to blame them it is probably not an act of terrorism by Muslims. They usually take credit for their "work" very quickly. Evidently no group has claimed "credit" for this loss ....... yet.

SRH

These kind of fires that start during renovation of old buildings are often caused by lead burning (welding) where the sheet cannot be beaten or welted or the heat from halogen lighting near tinder dry timber. Led lamps are more common these days though. A stray cigarette end or the sparks from cutting/grinding could do the same job
We nearly lost one of the Queen's pads not so long ago when hot works on the roof ignited the timber. It's easily done.
Apparently, the structure of the building is ok so I'd imagine it will be restored to its former glory.
I hope the Vatican will use some of its vast wealth to fund it rather than relying on hand outs from the general public.

Nick-- I've worked in the welding trade all my adult life- and know a little about metallurgy-- You can't cut lead, or cast iron, with an oxy-acetylene torch. Don't know the term you used in your post-- "welting" as it refers to metalworking- care to explain that one??

Although I agree in principle with friend Stan's post on this sad affair-- and he is right- the Muslims are not shy about listing their many world-wide terrorist schemes, I still tend to think they were somehow responsible for part of this tragedy- Granted, they may NOT have started the fire- but what's to keep them from disrupting the communications that occur after such a disaster is "called in" a major traffic jam in the heavy Paris traffic could delay the arrival of the fire trucks, for example--

My only real experience with the usage of lead comes from my Military service years- lead is a shield against radio waves- all the electric blasting caps used in EOD training were kept in a lead shielded wooden storage case, usually 10 caps per case. RWTF- but NO "riding to the foxes on my watch!"--

RWTF, That entire second paragraph of yours looks like you are simply trying to find ways to blame roughly a quarter of the world's population for something for which you have exactly zero evidence at the moment. Wait a while and see if it is justified. Nothing is to keep any of us from doing something evil. Why single out Muslims here and now?

Maybe we should stick to double guns...

Too early to form any opinion. Such a shame though!...Geo

Easy there,partner- I'm not the first guy who has posted herein that has suggested that the Muslims were behind this event. I will admit to not being a fan of the Koran. And America is NOT the "Great Satan" either. As a life-long Roman Catholic, I am deeply disturbed about this, as much as I would have been had Hitler sacked the Vatican during WW11-- I'll reserve my final judgement until the final facts are in--

We had a local Pizza and convenience store here, located about 1/8th mile from the Middle School and High Schools in Greenville. The former owners retired and sold it to some Muslim immigrants- they drove it into the ground- they were rude to all the school kids, including 2 of our grandchildren (who were raised to be polite to others) served rotted lunch meat in their sandwiches, and shouted curses in Arabic to anyone who looked like a White Christian American--they went Chapter 11-

Muslims want to move here, but as a general rule, do not wish to conform to the American way of living and doing business with others. And I personally do NOT care for the way they mis-treat their wives and daughters and females-- You want to move to America, you learn English as your primary language-- IMO anyway!! RWTF

https://youtu.be/P2_jqOedtjU
RWTF, Hi, couldn't think of a way to describe it but the wonders of modern technology should help. It's a water tight folded joint in sheetwork.
Lead burning is a lowish temp weld using a propane or oxyacetylene torch and lead filler rod. It's tricky with thin sheet as it's easy to hole through so you've gotta move quickly. It was used more in the chemical industry for chemical vessels (acids etc) until modern plastics took over. It's a dirty job and leadburners needed regular blood tests as the fumes let lead into the body via the lungs, once there were so many ppm in the blood, you had to stop working with it so probably a good thing it's not so common now.
I've done a bit when a downspout or drain pipe needed to be fixed in a lead gully but again, it's not so common now with modern materials.
Hope that throws some light on it.
Cheers
Nick.

https://youtu.be/738oduT1_hI

Leadburning video.

Righto-- Years ago, Plumbers (Latin- Plumbe- lead) had to"wipe" a lead pipe joint to pass their Journeyman's test and get their trade union card. A neighbor who is now a Master Plumber tells me the Union no longer requires that test-- . Have never worked with lead or even galvanized pipe- PVC is, along with canned beer, one of the greater inventions of our time- IMO. Cheers!! RWTF

Just took a peek- nice job of running the puddle and freezing it, from one tack to the nest- good hand to hand co-ordination. You want to be a skilled TIG welder? First learn to gas weld and braze- in position to start with. RWTF

Dang, man! Really? Have you been living on Venus for the past 20 years?
JR

That�s what I thought when you wrote that the fire was related to some lead abatement project. Maybe, we�re just sitting on a pickup tail gate after the hunt, chit chatting.

Well at least we've gotten to see the efficiency of modern progressive government in action. Fastest arson investigation in modern history. The welders did it...Geo

Maybe it was a town drunk who flicked a Gitane or Gauloise butt into some rubble. Why not wait until there actually is some data. Facts are incredibly interesting sometimes...

Yup, it was officially some unintended event, before their fire department said the fire out.

Odd, why, then did all the Parisian officials and all the media report that investigations are already underway into the cause if you have already determined it.

I thinks it�s something to look into. All I mentioned is what some official looking French guy said on the morning news.

Because they have been doing a lot of this kind of shit for the last 25 years. Or hadn't you noticed.

When investigating anything, it makes sense, with a lack of hard evidence pointing in a particular direction, to look at the most likely candidates first. It's what unbiased investigative forces do the world over.

Talk about ideology getting in the way of common sense. Too bad it's now such a widespread problem. Even my Muslim friends think like I do.

At times, as families and countries, we feel disconnected from everything and then, almost as an act of god, Notre Dame brings hundreds of millions together, catholics and others, like a death in the family. Dear Paris, dear France, we are with you.

Having said that, I read recently of a study that said "social" media is causing more dissension and turmoil than the opposite: bringing publics closer together. The finger-pointing in one particular direction here indicates there may be something to it.

I think some of us are tired of you progressives telling us we don't know what we know. Your progressive Emperor has no clothes King.

You must be referring to the progressives who said the 9/11 killers entered the US from Canada, James. Or the progressives who said there were WMDs.

For punishment the union is going to send that crew over to a project at the Louvre.

That�s one tough day at work...


_________________________
Pierre, you have that number for Truckmaster Driving School?
I might need it.

Hahaha! Touch� King.

French news on tonight. The CEO of the company in charge of renovations said there were no workmen present at the time the fire started, no welding going on that day, no torches used that day, no use of electrical devices. The Electricity was turned off. One commentary said, "Everything points to a deliberate act." The official line is, "it's still under investigation but it looks like an industrial accident."

Courtesy of BBC:

The book "Pillars of the earth" has a cathedral fire that is deliberately set in the roof framing timbers. I remember the writing as realistic and riveting. The renovation work would make areas of the cathedral easily accessible that otherwise would not be. Arson investigators are good at what they do, and accelerants are hard to hide. With the huge Muslim population in France, it doesn't take a conspiracy theorist to see the possibilities.

I was suspicious when the authorities announced it was "accidental" while the firemen were still battling the blaze.

Early reports said the rose window had exploded and was lost. That was the most grievous to me, as the technique used to produce that exquisite stained glass has been lost, and they would not be able to exactly replace the windows. Later reports seem to indicate they have survived. I believe the windows were removed and crated off to safe places during the German shelling of Paris. They truly are irreplaceable, and a wonder to behold standing on that stone floor.

Mike

King, thank you for reminding us that we are all just one big, happy, misunderstood family.

I doubt that there were any welders working their skilled trade in an 800 year old building that caused the fire at Notre Dame in Paris-- carpenters, brick masons, etc- yes-- So, my Georgia based gent'man, perhaps you'd care to rephrase that bold statement that casts aspersions on the trade that has its origins in blacksmithing-- Look at ll the recent terrorist acts that have occurred in France since 9/11 in NYC-- draw your own conclusions George, but don't blame skilled tradesmen that clearly were NOT involved in this tragic incident in The City of Lights--

Now, to "lighten the load here"- Just heard that the valuable church organ was removed to safety- Saints be praised for that- so, let me segue into a Church organ based joke--yes, that's right, gents-- there is such a joke-

The Church choir director was preparing the choir for the Easter Oratorio-- and his organist, Miss Smithers, was most diligent in her practice every evening leading up to that big event. But a sudden death in his family called him away for part of that week- he gave his keys to Miss Smithers so that she could continue to practice each evening-

When he returned, he went to the Church after dinner and saw her car parked in the lot, and could hear her practicing Handel's musical score as the entered. As he approached the organ in the loft, he saw a blue package on the top corner of the keyboard- he was a bit shocked to see it was a Trojan condom- especially shocked as Miss Smithers was a life-long spinster.

"Well now", he said to her-- "I see you have been busy practicing the Handel music while I was called away- sounds just right!"

"Oh, thank you ever so much", she replied. "But Miss Smithers, can you shed any light on how this blue package came to be placed on the organ?"--"Oh, my stars- yes I can, Mr. Epperson" she replied-- "Just the other night as I was walking up to unlock the door, I saw this on the pavement, and I picked it up and brought it inside with me--

Well, it read: 'To prevent spread of disease, place carefully on organ'! "Well, you know how often I get head colds in the Spring-- but ever since I put it there, I haven't even had a sniffle!""

". With the huge Muslim population in France, it doesn't take a conspiracy theorist to see the possibilities."

I guess you consider 6% of the population huge. Ever been there?

I wonder how you so easily overlook the "yellow vests" that have been marching, rioting, protesting, not to mention all the jilted boyfriends and girlfriends and grumpy, recently fired, laborers, not to mention the fairly large (I think) population of smokers of horrible French cigarettes. And so on.

No end of people to blame. Could be just a pile of oil rags in corner. Time bomb waiting to go off. Never happened to a gunsmith after all.

A chapel was being renovated around my parts and was almost burned down due to a pile of rags with varnish and turpentine on them, and they self ignited.

Any 'hot work' should have a fire watch for a half hour, then an hour, then two hour intervals afterwords. you'd be surprised how many large fires that prevented in my trade.

Also, the place was surounded by water...and no pump houses to be seen. A very poor fire plan I think. I think some heads should roll. No one ever foreseen a fire happening there. hmmmm...

Horrible tragedy. I hear more then 1/2 Billion dollars has been promised. I cannot imagine how many years it will take to rebuild. I bet at least 20.

Whoever, whatever, how & why are things not yet known.
One thing that I do know is that I was away on a deer hunting trip & when I phoned home my wife said that she had a dream that night of a big religious war breaking out in Europe.
Then in the morning she saw the fire on the news.

O.M

Over 1 billion euros raised so far.

Catholics, if you would, Oh Mighty King- not "catholics" Methodists, Episcopalians, Baptists, Lutherans-- so, it follows on that my chosen faith should also be Capitalized, ne's pas mon Canuck ami??? Le Reynard--

As Fox notes, there are catholics and there are Catholics.

James can put words in my mouth anytime, Fox! Where I live is affectionately referred to as Little Rome. Ecumenism is strong, as a leader in cooperative development. It's not fussy about distinctions.

I see that those evil rich corporations and evil billionaires are the ones pledging money to rebuild.
weird why evil capitalists would be so generous. must be an ulterior motive. Hmmmmmm!!! (sound ominous music now)

Then again I heard Beto O'Rourke pledged a buck three eighty!!!
he is a generous soul

Do I detect a whiff of: Soros, Bloomberg und Der Bittenberg Gruppen rising from the ashes of what remains of the Notre Dame roof-- smoke ascending to the Heavens, while non-Christians perhaps seek redemption for their selfish greed on this earth?? Like perhaps the line from the first "Diehard": "It's gonna take a whole shitload of duct tape and screen doors to fix this baby!""--

As a staunch Roman Catholic, and knowing of all the secret wealth and resources stashed at The Holy See- I say,let the lads in the snappy red robes at the Vatican Bank fund the rebuilding of the Cathedral in Gay Paree!

"Then again I heard Beto O'Rourke pledged a buck three eighty!!!
he is a generous soul"

I find it fascinating to look at the released federal income tax returns of politicians like O'Rourke and see how little they give to charity, particularly as a percentage of their total income. Wouldn't you think that even if they aren't willing to write checks for amounts over their tax liability to the government (which none apparently ever do, even while campaigning for higher tax rates), they'd make that up by supporting charities? Or is this yet another instance of endorsing generosity while practicing selfishness?

How rich is he?

Not Soros. he turned his own people in during WW2. and last I knew he wasn't Catholic!!!

France's 3 richest families lead $700 million fundraising effort for Notre Dame

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/16/business/...tion/index.html


I guess Bernie would expect all of the Millenial Baristas donating their tips!!!

Plow it under and build a park.

Probably the same sentiments of those who destroyed Palmyra. Where is a tolerant liberal when we need him?

Not here.

Best,
Ted

Really? That�s the best you can do? How sad.

Let the Pope cough up the restoration money out of the church's wealth.

Oh believe me CB, I could go on and on about what should be done with all of the alters to the suspension of disbelief and child molesting, but I won't.

Incidentally, what is so sad about building a nice park for the people instead of continuing to belabor adults into rationalizing fairy tales? Sure its history, but thats the kind of history I don't mind seeing hit the dust bin.

Didn't think you would be so offended by a park though.

Apples and oranges Ted but a good attempt to tar me with ISIS sympathies none the less. But you ignore a glaring distinction in your attempt to jab. ISIS destroyed that historical city because it was part of a civilization before the rise of Islam and therefor seen as an idol of the infidel who did not follow their religion. My advocating for the repurposing of the land isn't because the former tenant didn't follow my religion, I have none. I'm advocating for a park, because a park would be more useful then a temple to fairy tales and child molestation.

Isis destroyed Palmyra because they are intolerant. As are you. Any comparison was only pointing that out.
It is not necessary for me to tar you to illustrate that.

Best,
Ted

Well Ted, if my belief that humanity should be above having to rationalize fairy tales for the sake of an imaginary afterlife while turning a blind eye to the point of condoning child molestation... Color me intolerant! I just can't tolerate that. I know, I know... thats a character flaw around here where we are oh so very tolerant of others.

Yabut nca, if it was built as a temple to fairy tales and child molestation, can you figure out why your buddies the French are rebuilding it? Don't knock it just yet, it may turn out looking like a temple for you true believers, the religion of leftism. If they display phallic silicone art in vats of urine, will you make an annual pilgrimage to worship with the like minded tolerant?

Sorry I started this line. I have French spouse, sons, in-laws and what happens there affects me. The fire probably was an accident but it is an unexplained accident. I was extremely upset and with the daily demonstration of how centrally controlled from Paris France really is, right down to having news anchors fired because Brigette didn't like them, or being able to ban grocery store sales because "it might hurt the farmer," I was skeptical that a clear accident investigation would get to the bottom of anything.

But I didn't mean to start a political spitting match yet again. Let's wait to see what comes out. Right now there is a lot of anger in the French...and they want to hear more from the 32 year old whose firm was one of the ones working on the building. I know that in Washington DC, you start renovating a building, you'll have a fire extinguisher every 5 yards. I somehow doubt that this intense obsession with safety applies in Europe. In the meantime, let's wait and see.

And no one here supports ISIS or terrorists. Since I started this mess...I suppose I could delete it...but I learned something about welding I must say...and about lead.

Let me take a crack at it! Plow Notre Dame under and make it a park. It doesn't get my knickers in a knot. I see where it comes from. It's an opinion. One of Canada's most distinguished radio broadcasters said on national radio and to the world the Roman Catholic Church is "the biggest criminal organization in the world outside the Mafia."

Not a peep. I like to think his listeners have pretty good critical judgement. We also know that, as a cultured person, Michael Enright would see much to admire in the Church, its organizational skills and traditional role as champion of the poor. I think the same way. Notre Dame is more than a church to the world, as is the wall in Arlington more than a monument to a nation's sacrifice to me.

I'd like to think we've outgrown the notion of simple solutions to everything.

Yes. You might have gathered that from my comment about looking at the windows from the stone floor.

Mike

Sources: Jack J. Murphy, chairman of the Fire Safety Directors Association of Greater New York; Jim Lygate, visiting professor of fire investigation at University of Edinburgh; Guillermo Rein, professor of fire science at Imperial College London.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/04/17/world/europe/notre-dame-cathedral-fire-spread.html

I think you have generously shared some of the best of traditional French culture in a personal way. You are a fortunate man. I challenge you to reread nca's comments and conclude that they're trivial, he's speaking his truth.

Notre Dame de Paris is owned by the French Republic...the state. It is part of the patrimony and history of France itself. It is a holy site. it is also the equivalent of the Washington Monument, Independence Hall, and the US Capital building all rolled into one. And for 1000 years you could not understand France without understanding the three legs of French society...the King (state), the Army and the Catholic Church.

To advocate "plowing it under"....and French revolutionaries did so...as the Bolsheviks did in Soviet Russia...would be the equivalent of Madame Mao's banning of Chinese culture during the Cultural Revolution. It would be Philistine vandalism and sacrilege.

Trolls are trolls. They contribute nothing intellecutually but provocation. I started this line because of my respect for France and its culture and contribution to humanity. It is now devolved into mindless political vomit. Have a nice day.

Interesting statistic from the French govt: Christian churches suffered over 1,000 desecrations/attacks last year. Jewish synagogues in France suffered over 500 attacks. Considering that there are about 60x as many Christians in France as there are Jews . . . looks as if, once again, the Jews are on the short end of the stick.

The "Wall", you refer to, where 2 of my best friends have their names inscribed on for Eternity, is adjacent to the Reflecting Pool, NOT in Arlington National Cemetery-formerly the lands belonging to CSA General Robert E. Lee--

You are 100% correct about your analysis of the Church's wealth and corrupt practices- and as I have several Sicilian "Goombahs' I also buy into your comparison with the Mafia--Two of their precepts with which I fully agree are: "Revenge is a dish which is best served cold" and the code of Omerta-- silence to the death-- When you keep a secret- it is "Subito el dente"- meaning- kept behind the teeth.

So, why doesn't the Holy See admit their hidden wealth and put that on the line to rebuild Notre Dame Cathedral? Good question, and one that most likely will never be answered, and more than where does the Church send the child molesters in robes??

Christians and Jews come under the same umbrella when it comes to much of the persecution by heathens, because we both believe in the same God, the main difference being that the Jews do not believe Jesus was the Messiah. That difference is not that important to those who are persecuting them. Jews will always face great persecution. Persecution of Christians will only increase, over the long term, until the great "Reckoning". This should be abhorrent to believers, but not a surprise.

SRH

Imagine what it would be like if you were in the minority and they were in the majority.

Oh those poor Christians, they have had it so rough from being tossed into the pits with loins to being forced to sell a cake to the LGTBQ community. I can only imagine the burden of persecution you feel each and every time a priest does the perp walk after decades of raping alter boys.

"Tender- loins?" "Sir-loins" humm- always thought the cruel Romans preferred to use the "King of Beasts" to eliminate those pesky Christians- Androcleas being the noted exception-- Of course, if a Roman governor chose to use the Detroit Lions, the point spread would greatly favor the Christians--RWTF

I can think of someone I�d like to throw to Da (Chicago) Bears...


___________________________
...In the Colosseum tonight.
https://youtu.be/SxF0272ra50

Thanks for the correction, Fox.

As for who pays, I think the money is coming in as it should. I'd rather the Vatican stayed out of it. Our mostly Catholic region has already paid a high financial price for its sexual abuse, selling off parish churches and properties, and if the super-rich are anteing up, that money comes from commoners all over the world; we're participating, too. Litigating for payment doesn't seem right; better our nickels and dimes, dollars and euros, so all of us are a part of it.

Why are you here nca? To demonstrate your intellectual and moral superiority to us deplorables and delusional Christians? Do you get some rush with the sense of power when someone rises to your baiting? Do you really think any father here doesn't want pedophile priests (or any cleric) and those that enabled them, likely including the last Pope, to spend the remainder of there disgusting lives in prison?
Does spewing your venom somehow lessen the pain of the terrible thing that happened that has so filled you with hate, which is destroying you and any relationship with someone who cares about you? Are your really any different from Keith?

Resurrection Day is near. We can be regenerated, by the blood of Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit.

I expect more from people then just wanting the individual perpetrators to get justice Drew. Its the institution as a whole that sanctioned, enabled and protected the pedophiles and it still gets the masses to go to church and pay $ for the assurance that their everlasting soul will have a happy afterlife. How can you be sure that none of those donations go to the legal defense fund?

Seems kind of selfish that a christian will look the other way and still participate and spread the institution's dogma so they can get into an imaginary theme park at the end, forget about all the kids that got raped in the meantime. But then again , looking the other way when people are being persecuted is the Church's thing right? They sure turned a blind eye to the final solution.

And then there is that persecution complex christian's get when they cant discriminate. Got to love the hypocrisy of that one.

I know you do missionary work in South America. With respect to bringing needed supplies and medical care to the needy, in and of itself is noble. You don't need religion to do that and be a good person.

And if you get pissed at me for pointing this stuff out, your issue isn't with me, it should be with the institution that does it.

Given that in this country we believe in freedom of religion, we should find the desecration of ANY place of worship--Christian, Jewish, Muslim, other--to be a heinous act.