doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com U.S. Maker's Frame Steels

I am aware of only 3 reports of U.S. maker's doubles frame composition

Plans & Specifications of the L.C. Smith Shotgun by William S. Brophy contains an undated but likely post-1913 Materials Specification chart indicating �AISI 1020 Carbon Steel� for both the frame and barrel.

July 1, 1920 American Machinist published an Ordnance Salvage Board Surplus Property Sale of almost 75,000 pounds of �Spec. Shape Gun Steel� from the A.H. Fox Gun Co. with C .15-.25%, Mn .5-.7% and S & P < .06% = AISI 1020 and likely frame steel
https://books.google.com/books?id=ezRMAQAAIAAJ&pg=RA1-PA409&lpg

Possibly someone could check The Parker Story to see if there is a report

Winchester Model 21 Proof Steel was reported to be Chrome Molybdenum Nickel AISI 4140 or 4340, but I've not found a published composition analysis

AISI 8620 is a Carbon .18 - .23%, chromium, molybdenum, nickel alloy steel often used for modern shotgun frames, and is easily carburized and machined when annealed

If someone would like to send me a scrap U.S. maker's frame, I'd be happy to zap it via Optical Emission Spectroscopy (OES) for confirmation

Drew;
4140 & 4340 are classified as Low Alloy Steels. 4140 is a Chrome Moly steel while 4340 is chrome-nickel-moly steel. Compositions are as follows, from Machinery's Handbook.
4140 = Carbon (C) 0.38-0.43, Manganese (Mn) 0.75-.1.0, Chromium (Cr) 0.8-1.1, Moly (Mo) 0.15-0.25
4340 = C 0.38-0.43, Mn 0.6-0.8, Nickel (Ni) 1.65-2.0, Cr 0.7-0.9, Mo 0.2-0.3

In my machine shop days, I machined a trainload of 4340 but very little 4140. Did do a lot of 4130 though. The two 40 point carbon alloys were oil hardening while the 30 point one was water hardening. Oil would simply not quench the 4130 fast enough for it to reach maximum hardness. In heat treating these alloys even if maximum hardness was not desired, they still had better properties if fully hardened & then drawn /tempered to desired hardness, than if not fully hardened, to begin with.

Carbon, Manganese, Sulpher and ??-- Not a metallurgist by any means, just wondering. If you'll pay the shipping cost from MI to AZ- I'll send you a "boat anchor" 1903 era 12 gauge R frame receiver OO grade- I also have the parts intact from same: bolt, coupler, top lever,

WPS, as found on my M21 and most of my M12's-- nickle based, chrome moly- most likely 4140-- But why do the bottom of the early M21 receivers turn a brownish hue and years of field usage, but the barrels, etc. retain most of their rust bluing?? RWTF

I don't notice any "browness" in 2 of my M21's made in 1935.
Jim

Sending a scrap frame or action that is made post-1899 without an FFL transfer would be a felony unless it is flame cut or otherwise rendered totally unusable.

However, actual metallurgical analysis by a competent Met Lab, of a statistically significant number of frames would be the only way to determine if a gun such as a Tobin, or Worthington, or Crescent might have used an inferior quality of steel which contributed to premature wear and failure. Not all Steel Mills had great Met Labs and great quality control engineers. I have seen scrap or inferior product sent to the customer in spite of being rejected by Q.C.

There is a reason why certain steels manufacturers such as Krupp, Whitworth, Kilby, Timken, Simmonds, Eskilstuna, etc. developed a world-wide sterling reputation for quality and consistency. There is also a reason why products made of steel from Pakistani, Chinese, and other third world steel mills have a reputation as low quality junk. This country had many producers of low grade junk as well. All steel is not created equal, and you don't always get what you may think you are buying. Steel quality and composition is one very important reason why some brands of guns withstand heavy use for decades, and other brands become junk. But it is not the only reason.

21 receivers are a bear to blue to me. They don�t go brown as much as the blue gets a purple undertone. 12�s also can fade a bit different from the barrel color.

Model 21's don't have receivers. But actions and receivers that have bluing that turns purple usually indicates a high nickel content.

Being a Journeyman welder by trade, flame-cutting up the L.C. Smith receiver (sans action parts) is a "no-brainer" I bought it for the parts, someone had tried to remove the firing pin bushings and butchered it up-- this is SN 47286 and has the older rotary cam barrel stop-extractor actuator design--

What a strange ruling- can you fire any shells from a double barrel shotgun receiver- w/o the barrels in place. The only way I can conceive of this stripped down receiver being used as a weapon is if a villan threw it at your head at close range--

Re: M21 blueing fading- I have no idea how old my M21 is- the SN is 15992- mt Dad bought it used in 1948, passed it to me in 1980-- it has a splinter forearm, so there is barrel blueing wear evident in that area, but the blueing on the receiver bottom side is also worn, but seems to have a different patina. Could WRA have used a slightly different nickel-chrome-moly-carbon analysis steel for the barrels, than for the frame/receiver?? Just wondering.

FWIW-- any one who orders L.C. Smith parts from me will also receive a L.C.S. Collectors Assn. 2019 calendar- gratis- included in the shipping.

I would prefer NOT to slice up this older L.C. Smith with a gas axe", just as I would prefer NOT to tug on Superman's Cape- or even spit into the wind at a mach 3 velocity. RWTF

I "beg to differ" re: "receivers. Page 63-- WRA Sales Manual 1938 in alpha order, their term definitions: Receiver: The metal box or casing which houses the breech, lock, and reloading mechanism of a shotgun or rifle. Otherwise termed the frame. All my Winchesters- rifles and shotguns- have receivers, just as they have barrels and stocks- Capishe???

Nope Fox, break open doubles do not have receivers. They have frames or actions. Your definition above does apply to your Winchester Model 12 or your Winchester Model 70, but not a Model 21. Revolvers don't have receivers either.

But I'm not going to get all bent out of shape over terminology like Dr. Wanker did with his repetitive rant over water table vs. action flats. Although I wonder what he would have said if someone called action flats receiver flats???

RWTF, let me know if you ever find any firearms regulation that has anything to do with common sense! If the LC was made before Dec.31 1898 no problem shipping to anyone. If it was made 1 Jan. 1899 it has to be shipped through an FFL. The action with nothing else is the firearm because it has the serial number.

OK--fair enough-- To quote the late Gertie Steinway: "A rose is a rose is a rose-and if you have 4 roses, you have some 80 proof whiskey"!!

I am sure things have changed since that WRA sales manual came out in 1938--some for the good, some "Nicht ser gut"!~! Plastic stocked rifles, instead of traditional walnut-- roll engraving, instead of handwork-- No more A&F, VL&A, Ithaca, Parker, L.C. Smith double guns-

WW11 did a great deal to change all the good quality American firearms.
A late friend, a serious Winchester collector and shooter, always preferred pre-WW11 mfg. Winchesters- His theory. Wartime production of military weapons that had greater tolerances than the pre-War M70's, M12's etc-- influenced the post-War production tolerances- and the lack of good domestic walnut for sporting rifles and shotguns, due to the war demands-- Oh well---

Hey Fox, this firearms terminology business gets nuts sometimes. I'm pretty sure someone will be along shortly with about a dozen links to show I'm wrong. I still have to stop and think, is that wooden thingy under my barrels a forearm or a forend??? Some references say a forearm is only found on guns with a one-piece stock, while others say the terms are interchangeable. And the New York Times was still spelling potato with an e at the end up until 1988, but Vice President Dan Qualye became an instant idiot for doing so in 1992.

Meanwhile, poor dumb nca225 is still struggling with the difference between "then" and "than". What chance do illegal immigrants have to assimilate when people born and raised here can't manage to do it?

Well said indeed.. Everything the Gov'ment tries to do to "regulate" our rights under the 2nd. Amendment ends up making no sense at all. Eric Holder and the "Fast and Furious FUBAR" re: Mexican druglords getting firearms from the USA is a prime example.

If I sliced that 12 ga. OO grade "Elsie" receiver/frame in half with an abrasive "chop saw" (we have one in our small metal shop) and sent each half in 2 different shipments, I am sure some BATFE "pencil-dick" would find a way to "bust my chops"-- what a world!

RWTF

Eric Holder . . . I realize this is straying away from guns. However, it made me very angry when Holder was talking about prosecuting CIA officers because they used enhanced interrogation techniques--AUTHORIZED BY THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION--on captured terrorists. In that particular case, Leon Panetta--Obama's CIA Director--stood up for his troops and stopped that from happening.

I've now accumulated the following scrap frames, and will take them over to METL later this spring for composition analysis, along with a few more barrel samples ( @ $75 each )
Will be nice to confirm the frames were AISI 1020.

1890 Early Hunter Arms Fulton �Transition� L.C. Smith Hammerless

1892 New Ithaca (Hammer) Gun

1900 Remington Hammerless Model of 1900

1909 L.C. Smith 00

c. 1927 Crescent Empire No. 60

Good effort Drew.
This will tell for sure & be very interesting to see.
What a great contribution to the knowledge base here.

I hope by then you might have some more cheap guns of the time that are known to warp & twist so as to tell better the difference between a design problem or a metallurgical problem .

It will be good to see if the better guns had bang for the buck in quality of materials.

I feel like throwing some funds at this worthy investigation.

O.M

No problem brother, but thank you.

You've seen this? Scroll past the 1892 Birmingham Proof House Report
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cvqRzkg0wEjhAAcFWr8gFi7aPFRsSIJ_hahfDxmrNAU/edit
and
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dnRLZgcuHfx7uFOHvHCUGnGFiLiset-DTTEK8OtPYVA/edit