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#537860 02/16/19 11:01 AM
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First I do not consider myself a collector of these but over the years have acquired a few. Most came from yard sales, auction sales, flea markets & such at such low prices I just couldn't resist. My absolute earliest "Reloader" is a hickory ramrod fitted with a brass head, for a muzzleloader obviously.

Beyond that, I have an early boxed set, partially of wood with a thin steel wad seater, cast primer seater "pliers" & roll crimper all in 16 gauge. I have a couple of Lee loaders, one 12 & one 28. Have a French made 16 gauge loader imported by Thalson & ran across three at once of old Lyman Vandalia loaders, all 12 gauge. Have several of the old combination shot & bulk or black powder dippers as well as several old roll crimpers. 1 in 16, 1 in 10 & the rest in 12.

Some of these I have played with & loaded maybe a box of shells with. All are actually capable of loading good shells but production is of course extremely Slow by modern standards.

Does anyone else have any of these old tools? Somehow I did not ever manage to run across a Lyman "Straightline" set, probably one of the more popular shotshell loaders in early days.


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I have a couple of wad seating brass plated tubes and their short ram rods, a powder dipper and roll crimpers. I have loaded a good numbeer of brass shells with a few hand made tools and a wood vise.

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Miller, I would love to find a Lyman Straightline set in 16 ga. They don't seem to show up at the usual suspect places.
I handload 16 ga. low pressure 7/8 oz. loads of #8 for woodcock. Here's a Manufrance (MF) adjustable shot and powder dipper, MF loading block for 16 ga., and MF RTO crimper in 16. The hulls are Cheddite paper. The gun is my MF Ideal 302 16 ga. I handload either with RTO's or with a brass hull set for turkeys depending on gauge. The RCBS scale is about 40 years old, hardly primitive and about as good as it gets for weighing powder and shot reliably. I have an assortment of digital scales, but had one malfunction (without consequences) and I don't trust them like I do the RCBS 10-10. I have a small collection (unintended) of RTO crimpers, in all gauges except 14 and 32.
Here's a complete 20 ga. set by Union Hardware in original box. It looks NIB.



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I have a box of vintage hand loading tools I think all 12 bore somewhere in my workshop, as it is Sunday tomorrow and no plans I will spend some time looking for it. If it turns up I will post a photograph of the box contents.


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GLS;
The boxed set is essentially like mine. Offhand I do not recall if mine is Eureka or Bridgeport Gun & Implement. I believe they both made near identical sets.
One other I forgot is a Herter shotshell die set for rifle presses with the 1Ľ-18 thread, Herter thread their heavy C-frame presses with this thread as did Lachmillar on some of their presses.

Considering inflation these early loading tolls were actually quite an investment when bought new. I looked back at an old 1960 Gun digest & the Lyman Vandalia was listed at about $35.00 & the Thalson @ $25.50 for the model 1 which is what I have. They also made a model which would either roll or fold crimp, the model 1 only fold crimps. On the model 3, the crank spun the shell itself rather than the crimp head.


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Miller,
While slower loading than a Mec et al., but for specialty loads where one isn't loading a flat's worth, the ability to handle shells of varying length without having to tweak a pie crimper for column height, etc, makes these vintage crimpers handy. There's a Bridgeport 12 RTO just under the red crimper on the left of the photo. Its pins are adjustable for either square or radiused crimp according to the writing on the German Silver crimper. Baffles me how it'd be done. It's set on square and it makes a nice crimp, but square topped. The ones made in the USA are easily identifiable; the French ones are more finished in appearance. It's easier finding subgauge crimpers from France than the in the USA where most are 12 gauge. 16 gauge seems to be the calibre de jour in France. ebay.fr "sertisseur". I have found several in 20 and .410 on the French site. More scarce over here.
Modern RTO's are available in subgauge from www.siarm.com (Italy) and from a Russian source I've seen on Ebay. Siarm's heads are gauge interchangeable on the same frame. Storage of RTO's obviously takes up less space than an assortment of MEC presses. Gil

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Gil, that's quite a collection. I'm eating my heart out. I have two roll crimpers for 12ga and one for 10. Also a wooden 4" long punch with a pin one ne end to deprime and it's turned around and a round end attached so the other end can be used to prime and push down wads. It sets in a round stand with a hole in it for the primer to drop through.

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I have an unused Eureka Brass Shell Set in 14 gauge.

I have 2 14s, but have yet to fire either, they are old. I'll get around to it one day.

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Gil;
Certainly a very nice assortment of roll crimpers you have there, thanks for the pic. I don't have near this many but do have 10, 12 & 16 gauges. My 10 gauge is the best quality one I have, looks somewhat like the one below & to the right of your Red one. I made a 12 gauge head for it patterned after the original 10 gauge & can insert a sleeve for the smaller hulls & have used it for loading 12s as well.
A bit more modern but still obsolete I have picked up Herter model 72 & 390 presses. These are both of heavy cast iron construction & near indestructible.
The 72 I consider a single stage though all dies are set up & one could load a single shell without any changes, however, each step is done individually. When using it I found it more efficient to go through a single step on all cases before going to the next step. The 390 will produce a loaded shell for each pull of the handle but requires more movements of components etc than more modern progressives.


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Miller, When I want to load a box of shells for woodcock, I run batches of 10 shells one stage at a time when I roll crimp. Last reloading bout my procedure was to preset the 10-10 and weigh powder and pour into each shell, one at a time, and immediately put a wad in the shell as a precaution to prevent double charges. When all 10 have powder and a wad, I reset the scale for the shot, weigh shot, pour in shell, and cover with OSC. When all ten are done, I roll'em up. I then repeat with 10 more shells. I don't load with other folks around and I do it in radio silence. When I loaded with a MEC progressive for ducks and doves, a mis-dumped shot charge would inevitably make a holy mess. I used to roll crimp with the crimper vertical to avoid dumping shot, but recently have crimped with the device in a horizontal position all the while handling the hull with care to avoid knocking the shot loose from the friction held OSC. I've been roll crimping about 10 years and I'm overdue for making a complete mess of things. So far, so good. Gil

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Gil;
I dispense my powder with a Lyman 55 powder measure. I weigh to confirm the measurer setting but not every charge by any means. I use two loading blocks & after priming put the hulls in one block upside down. I then pick up a hull, upside down, flip it over under the measure's spout & dump the powder charge. I place the charged hull right side up in the other block. No powder is dumped into a case which was not just previous upside down. I have used this method for around 50 years & have never double charged a case. All of my roll crimping has been done with the crimper clamped to the bench horizontally, have never had a problem with this.

I will try & take some pictures of my Thalson & a Vandalia soon. These are rather handy for "Small Batch" loading. I try to take most of my picks outdoors as I do not have good indoor lighting for photography. It seems to be raining here every day though.

I also have a few primitives in the rifle/pistol field if anyone is interested. didn't mention them as this is a shotgun board, but will do so on request.


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That's good technique, Miller. I used the RCBS equivalent powder dispenser when I shot metallic silhouettes years and loaded 7mm TC, a wildcat cartridge using necked-up 5.56 brass. We shot production Thompson Center single-shot pistols. I got rid of all that equipment years ago. Looking forward to your photos. Gil

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Here is a mixture of reloading tools, some from the early 1800s. The wad re loading tube and pusher can be used for pinfire as well as centrefire cartridges. A not so common hand roll turnover tool, it works well but extremely slow my limit is four cartridges. Wad punch and cartridge re sizing tool this requires a lot of hand strength, powder measure missing handle and adjustable shot measure. I think the bench mounting roll turnover tool is from around the 1900s



Two not so common items in this photograph one is the Kynoch .410 plier style re capper. The small pliers are for pulling out and inserting pinfire pins, one jaw has two fine V grooves at right angles to each other for griping the pins. I have only seen one other pair of these pliers so may be they are a bespoke item made for a gun case.



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Damascus, beautiful tools. As for the wad cutting tools weren't some given "love tap" assists from leather, brass or wooden headed mallets? Gil

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Well, it didn't rain today, so got a few pictures made. Not really high quality, but show the basics.

Thalson 16 gauge, Set Up for final crimp


Thalson Logo


CloseUp of Crimp Starter & shot/Powder Dipper
photoupload

Lyman Vandalia


Operating Handle on the Vandalia


3 of my Shot/Powder Dippers
gif hosting

On the Vandalia note the crimp starter & final crimper have a slot running up through the threads, they just slide in & are secured with a knurled head set screw. The threads are only for the adjusting locknuts. If you look close you can see the little pin inserted into the ram which serves as a stop for crimping. With the ram down against the stop pin, the starter or crimper is adjusted to come to the proper position & can, therefore, be adjusted for different case lengths. The shell guide for crimping should seat on the shelf which is visible in the pictures. This shell I picked up for the pic was not reloaded on this tool & there was apparently a bit of difference in the sizing dies diameters so the brass head will not enter the guide

On the Vandalia, there is a bit of an optical illusion. It appears the decapping punch is trying to enter the wad guide. In reality, the decapping pin pushes the fired primer put into the slot you see in the base. The wad rammer is invisible, being behind the decapping pin. The resizer is shown at back right position. For sizing it is inverted with C'bore to the top, the hull is started & it is set at front position & top plate pushes the hull into the die. It is then inverted & sits in a C'bore in the base so knockout runch can loosen it.
Crimper is in the front center but this design did not include a crimp starter. One was normally not needed when reloading a fired paper case.

On the dippers, the small one in front is a Lyman


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Shotgun Cartridge reloading is not popular on this side of the pond, possibly the reason shotgun barrel bursts are extremely few and far between here. I came across this vintage "Bowman" cartridge press complete with all its fittings at a local car boot sale, Bowman no longer manufacture them they now specialise in clay target launches. It cost me a cup of coffee for the person who owned it, all because I showed some interest in it. The plastic shot and powder bottles have been replaced with clear versions, after making some enquiries the original bottles where opaque and difficult to see how much shot and powder you had left, so the clear versions made things a lot easier.




GLS. I have never seen a specialised hammer or mallet for wad punches, though the one in the picture has all the signs of never being used.


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The following book may be of interest to anyone interested in collecting reloading tools." British Handloading Cartridge Tools."
Author, David J Baker, first published in 2003 by Gomer Press, Llandysul, Ceredigion, Wales.


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Miller, those two presses look stout. What is the cylinder shaped object above the funnel with the Thalson? Deprimer base or resizing die? My MECs look flimsy in comparison. My PW 375 looks cut (but not quite as thick) from the same cloth as the Thalson and Lyman. Those are impressive. In the below photo is my .410 brass hull reloading kit. L-R. funnel, primer seater used in conjunction with steel square and un-pictured rubber mallet, deprimer seat, deprimer ram, two 3" hulls. I have the kits for 20 and 12 with hulls. The kits are made by Rocky Mountain Cartridge and are reasonably priced. The dippers are all from France. The red handled one and double-ender in nickel silver are marked with the Manufrance symbol. Manufrance was the Sears-Roebuck of France but with better guns. Damascus, that appears to be a no nonsense approach to a single stage and looks sturdier than my MECs. Correct me I am wrong, but from what I understand, the reloaders in the UK are mostly waterfowlers. Gil

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Gil;
The cylinder above the funnel you asked about is the resizer. It is C'Bored on one end for the rim. I have not checked to see if it is tapered to full-length size or if it sizes more like a ring sizer, but suspect the later.

My very first reloading was done with brass 20 gauge hulls obtained from the old Alcan Co. They were the Fiocchi brand & took the 645B Berdan primer. Every tool I used was home-made except the powder/shot dipper & I wasn't even a machinist then. I ground down a small screwdriver to a curved shape with a point which I stuck into the primer dent & popped it out. Made my primer seater punch & wad rammer out of an old broom handle whittled down to go in the hull with the primer seater having a hole drilled in the center so it didn't mash the primer pocket. Used an old Flat/Sad iron turned upside down for the flat surface to seat the primer. Started with DuPont bulk smokeless powder which I could dip by the dram setting. I later procured some "Nike" powder, also from Alcan, which was easy to ignite & worked well with the Berdan primers. At that point, I had to buy a scale as it was a dense powder. The Nike was a crimson colored flake powder & as I recall was imported from Italy.

Speaking of Stout though nothing I have seen equals that old Herter model 72 for stout. As I recall it weighs around 25 lbs It came with a shot & powder measure which used a rotary drum with the cavities opposed to one another. Washers were attached in the bottoms of the cavity to adjust volume.
Could probably do a google search on that model & find pictures of it or maybe someday I'll pull mine out & take some.


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Found a site which has a downloadable manual for the model 72 here;
https://www.scribd.com/doc/33468843/Herter-s-72N-Shotshell-Reloading-Tool-Instructions-1960s
Interesting to look at even if you don't have one of them.
Both the Herter 72 & the Lyman Vandalia came on the market around 1960. The 72 sold for $59.95 including the shot & powder measure & the electric shell reformer. The Vandalia was around $35.00. The 72 stayed on the market until the mid-1970s, don't know how long the Vandalia lasted. Best as I recall I bought my 72 in the 70s while it was actually available new, but paid $15.00 for it with both 12 & 20 die sets. It did not have the shell reformer, but by then I was mostly using plastic hull so it wasn't needed.

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Miller, this one in the tiny url somewhat resembles your Thalson except it appears to also have the roll crimping ability judging from all the parts displayed. Nice looking shot/powder dippers accompanying it. All yours for the bidding. wink

https://tinyurl.com/y24pufyk
Here's an unusual in design 20 ga. roll crimper made by the Ideal Mfg. Co., New Haven, CT. The head holder slides down on the two rails applying pressure to the crimp. It's a slick little rig and makes a beautiful crimp. I've used it (and others) on my 3" turkey loads. The third photo has patent info and perhaps a date. 20 ga. RTO's are rare in comparison to 16 and 12. 28 ga. and .410 more so. I've noticed a revival of interest in the old crimpers beyond collecting from turkey hunters wishing to handload shells. These Armstrong powered crimpers make as nice a crimp as can be made regardless of tool used or technique employed. Gil





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Gil;
That may well be who made my Thalson, though there are some differences in them. I don't know if more than one comp[any made them or not. Thalson was the importer, not maker of the tools. Everything on mine though says Thalson, including the box with the only hint of the maker, is it does say France.

Slick looking Ideal crimper you have there. I agree with you these do make excellent crimps. Most of mine are unmarked as to brand & have the plain heads. I do have one which uses the head with pins, the 10 gauge one I mentioned for which I also made a 12 gauge head. Does this Ideal have the reversible pins that will make either a flat or rounded crimp?

I like that loading block, I don't get that fancy, just use a piece of 2x of suitable width.


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Miller, the Ideal doesn't have reversible pins. My Bridgeport 12 does, but I don't see how its done. I see no way to change it. My 12 gauge loading block is homemade with a spade bit and scrap lumber. Do you see any practical difference between the flat and rounded crimp? While these tools preceded plastic hulls, what difference would have it made on the paper shells? It seems to me that the flat top on a modern plastic hull would eventually stress the plastic more than the round crimp. Gil

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Notice the loading block was made to accommodate pinfire shells. That was an interesting era for loading tools, as nothing had been standardized since leaving the muzzleloading era.

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Originally Posted By: Daryl Hallquist
Notice the loading block was made to accommodate pinfire shells. That was an interesting era for loading tools, as nothing had been standardized since leaving the muzzleloading era.


I was scratching my head and trying to figure out the function of the slot cut across the holes for the shell heads. I guess it would be tough to get a pinfire shell into the hole without that slot.

I love Miller's practice of keeping the shell upside down right until the moment of charging with powder to avoid double charges. As long as gravity keeps on working, it makes things pretty foolproof. As many years as I've been reloading and reading about it, I never heard that technique mentioned.

Damascus mentions buying his Bowman press at a "car boot sale". If that is anything like what we call Auto Parts Swap Meets, I have had a lot of luck finding reloading dies, equipment, and components at them. Often, these car guys have zero interest in the stuff, and sell it very cheap rather than take it back home and scrap it. I bought a nice 10 ga. roll crimper for a buck at the last one I attended. The guy told me I could have it for free if I could tell him what the hell it was. I gave him the dollar anyway, and we were both happy.


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Gil; I the Ideal #27 handbook two roll crimpers are listed which have the reversible pins, the diamond & the Star. The Star looks identical to your crimper except on the one pictured in the manual the star down on the frame appears to be either painted on or a decal, rather than cast in as on yours. I suspect yours is an earlier version. The reason stated for the separate shell header sliding on the two rails was that it would handle any length shell in a straight line fashion without a tendency to bend the shell.

It was also stated that until the Coming of repeating shotguns the square crimp was universally preferred as it gave more resistant to opening, giving better powder combustion. The rounded crimp became a necessity for repeaters to prevent hanging on the chamber in feeding. The pins on mine & appears the same on those pictured in this #27 manual are secured by set screws entering the face of the head. y crimper closely resembles the Diamond crimper pictured & does not have the separate header nor the rails.

This #27 was published by Lyman & is I believe the first one they had published after purchasing the old Ideal Co. The one I have is a reprint & does not include a date, only the number, but as I recall this took place in the mid-1920s

I have an original #37 Lyman/IOdeal manual & it still lists the Star crimper but the base is now different, the New crimp head does not use pins & it now has a belt drive designed to speed up the crimp head. The Straight line loading set is also listed. I do know that both continued on the market through most of the 1950s but not sure just how long.


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Daryl, that's an interesting observation about pinfires and the loading block. Manufrance started operations in St. Etienne in 1888 long after the beginning of the decline of pinfire which was the center of the pinfire universe as the cartridge was invented by Frenchman LeFraucheaux. However, Manufrance probably had a lot of Frenchmen hanging on to their old guns and MF may have intentionally put the slots in the block to accommodate them. There would be no other reason for the slits. Here's a photo of the rear of both blocks. The slit could have easily been made by a rotary chop saw blade. The holes appear to have been drilled by a Fortnser type bit. The bit pilot holes are visible in the larger block. Gil

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Miller, thanks for the explanation. It is appreciated. There's something special, at least to me, about handloading with these vintage tools and using them in the same era guns. Here's a photo of the Ideal's head showing the pins.


The next series shows a Bridgeport (B.G.I.) 12 ga. crimper with an 1891 patent date that I mentioned previously. It has several features which probably made it expensive for the era. In addition to it being capable of reversing from round to square shoulders, it has a "rocking" or pivoting head holder making it more adaptable to varying shell length either on the shell being crimped as it goes into the head or with shorter or longer shells. It also has a metal tube in the crimper's head that is spring loaded to maintain pressure on the OSC and wads at all stages of crimping. It is the bright line circle in a below photo. Another photo shows the screws that are loosened to switch between square or round crimps. It must have taken a special tool to reach the screws as they aren't reachable with a standard screw driver or the head was removed by disassembly of the crimper. Good luck on that. I will leave well enough alone. Gil




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Gil;
That BGI tool looks a lot like the one I have, but don't recall it having any makers mark on it, will have to get it out & look it over closely. I didn't have any problem removing the head on mine, just got a grip on it with something non-marring, don't recall now exactly what I used, & cranked it backward. I have a Williams brand "Channel-Lock" which has been heated & the hardness taken out of the Jaws. I have used these many times with about a 1/16" thick piece of aluminum under the jaws for gripping things & this is probably what I used here, just don't recall for certain.


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how bout ah palm o powder, followed by ah wad o wasp nest, followed by ah palm o shot, followed by ah wad o paper...


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I have "Heard" that some old timers loaded their Long Rifles by placing the ball in the palm of their slightly cupped hand. They then poured powder until it covered the ball, & that was the charge.

In more modern times a former co-worker told about a man who loaded his shotshells & when asked how much powder he used, said about a teaspoon full, I don't know what kind of powder he was using.


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Speaking of powder, the below clip has a discussion of waterfowlers in the UK using fine grained cannon powder from artillery rounds to load their guns. Featured in the discussion is a 10 ga. hammergun, an 8 and a 4 gauge muzzleloaders. The 4 gauge was a take no prisoners bushwack'em on the water or ground (covey of partridge) for the market. With the 4 gauge, the concept of lead was restricted to the pronunciation of "lead" rhyming with "ed" and not "bead". The 4 gauge was converted from a flintlock to percussion cap shotgun. Primitive for sure. Gil
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLVJo6CDGmM&t=1416s

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I about gave up on ever seeing the sun again, and took a few quick photos of some of my vintage loading tools indoors in my basement. The flash was supplemented by a 500 watt quartz work light, so there are some shadows.





Those were taken with my cell phone camera. I couldn't upload some others including an old Belding & Mull Powder Measure that I took with a regular digital camera because I left the cable and my SD card reader at work.


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Nice group of tools there Keith.
Not positive, but none of those look "Jewish" to me grin


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Thanks Miller. It ain't easy being named the official DoubleGunShop anti-Semite. Actually, I always thought it was probably not a good idea for any Christian to hate Jews because Jesus was Jewish, and so were his Mom and earthly Dad. Sure glad I didn't post a picture of 30 pieces of silver. I'd get blamed for selling Him out too.


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These tools are really interesting. Did you guys collect entire sets at one time or did you have to find pieces individually?

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Originally Posted By: ed good
how bout ah palm o powder, followed by ah wad o wasp nest, followed by ah palm o shot, followed by ah wad o paper...


Early in my muzzleloading career, I read that it was proved by chronograph that putting a wad of hornets nest material between the powder and the patched ball sealed the bore better and added almost 100 feet per second to muzzle velocity. That sounded good, so I began collecting every nice dormant hornets nest I found. The dormant part is important. I once hit one the size of a basketball in the summer with a brush hog, and learned my Ford 8-N tractor could not outrun them.

I used the stuff for years in my first flintlock, and I sure fired that gun a lot. Then I noticed a sharp and rapid drop off in what had been excellent accuracy. Ragged one hole groups at 65 yards became patterns. The first few shots on a clean barrel would be OK... not great, just OK, and then quickly open up. No matter what I tried, it only got worse. I lost confidence that I could even hit a deer in the heart at 50 yards or more. I compared the rifling with a much newer barrel of the same make, and mine was visibly worn. The bore and rifling looked good, but close examination showed it wasn't sharp.

Then I remembered that hornets use mud as part of their nest building material. Dried mud is abrasive. I was lapping my bore for years with every shot. Cutting the barrel shorter and recrowning didn't help much at all. The damage was done full length. I bought a new barrel. And I no longer used hornets nest under my patched ball.


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jbrooster, I collected mine mostly one at a time at flea markets, gun shows, and swap meets. But there were a few occasions that I'd find several pieces together. I've got another box full somewhere in my basement that has about 8 or 10 more roll crimpers that are mostly smaller bore. There are also several more shot and powder dippers and a nice Berdan Primer decapper and capper. When I bought that 10 ga. roll crimper at an Auto Parts Swap Meet for a dollar last fall, my buddy who was with me had no idea what it was, and he has been a reloader for years. I'm sure I've missed out on some neat stuff because I didn't know what I was looking at too.


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Keith, that's a nice variety of tools. For those not familiar, the flared tubes doubled as a funnel for shot and powder and held paper shells to stiffen them preventing collapse when pressure was exerted on the wads to properly seat them with the two wooden devices pictured as well. From 60-70 lbs. hand pressure was often recommended to seat the wads against the powder.
What prevents the shell from spinning in the tool pictured in the second photo?
Gil

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While my collection is not near as large as Keith's mine were also picked up individually. I am not really a dedicated collector of these, would run into them from time to time at places similar to Keith. If they sold for really Cheap I would take them home. Though not antique I did pick up my 3 Lyman Vandalia loaders at the same time/place. I actually bought them off eBay back when shipping was a lot more reasonable & the shipping was still higher than the tools.
Picked up the old Herter 72 press at a gun shop. I went to buy a set of 20 gauge dies for a Pacific press I was using at the time. He was going to have to order the die set but had this Herter press with both 12 & 20 dies for less than I could buy the Pacific dies alone so I just took it instead.
The Pacific was a single stage so the Herter served just as well & it is virtually Dyno-Mite proof.

On the flared tubes that Gil mentioned the ones I have are made in the necked portion just under the size of the shells interior diameter so the wads are squeezed a bit to assist them entering the shell without tearing the mouths. This was a big problem with paper hulls. Not sure when the wad guides with the brass fingers first came on the market, but they were a great help.


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I've picked up the tools over time from Ebay mostly. Like Miller said, they were cheaper a few years ago in both shipping and costs. The 12 gauge ones are still low in price. Bidding on 20 ga. is higher. I've yet to see .410 or 28 ga. on Ebay US. Ebay.fr will have them show up from time to time. There was a Frenchman who liquidated his collection of hundreds of tools. I bought directly from him as well. Interesting that the man neither hunted nor shot but collected the tools for a long period. He was a reliable source of subgauge crimpers for a few turkey hunters.
Miller, I've recently acquired (not here yet) a 16 ga. wad compressor that is a plunger inside a spring loaded metal tube that fits inside the hull. The wooden plunger is depressed releasing the wad inside the hull. I'll post a photo when it arrives. Gil

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Gil;
Look forward to seeing pictures of that one. I took a look at some of mine today.
The one I have looks just like your BGI with reversible pins. On the crimp head, it is marked "Reversible Pins for Square or Round Crimp 10" & then on another line very faintly B G I Co Pat Sept 1891 or possibly Sep 1, 1891, hard to say for certain. I believe it is identical to yours. This is actually the best crimper I have. As I said I made a 12 ga head for it but didn't make reversible pins. I just drove in roll pins & put the split on the back so a rounded side would make the crimp. Had to also make the inner sleeve which puts pressure on the top wad while crimping.

My boxed set is marked Eureka. The box is in bad condition but appears to have been made by Freeport Guin & Implement co, Bridgeport Conn.


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When Gil asked what prevents the shell from spinning in the roll crimper in my second photo yesterday, I didn't have a good answer. I knew it worked but I had never questioned that aspect of its' function. I got it back out when I got home this evening and looked closer. The black casting which holds the shell head is tapered inside. A 12 gauge shell doesn't actually touch the bottom. As you put pressure on the lever to advance the shell into the roll crimp head, there is nothing but friction of the shell rim being forced down into that taper that prevents the shell from rotating. I then put a 16 gauge shell into this tool and I think the base almost hit bottom, but there was still no lateral movement of the shell head in that tapered recess. Just for kicks, I advanced that shell into the crimp head and turned the handle. The shell still didn't rotate, but the 12 gauge roll crimping head didn't allow the smaller diameter case mouth to start rolling inward, and it started to roll outward instead. Reversing the handle unscrewed it from the crimp head, and the threads appeared to be 5/16" standard. It occurred to me that it wouldn't be hard to chuck a piece of brass into my Unimat or South Bend lathe and make another crimp head that would permit this tool to be used for 16 gauge as well. There is nothing on this tool to indicate what company produced it, or where. Only a "12" stamped into the frame.



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Thanks, Keith. I see it now. The second photo makes it clearer. That is a more sophisticated design compared to what one usually sees in the old crimpers, and the design accommodates different lengths of shells efficiently.
Miller, the BGI 1891 is definitely higher quality than most of the others I have from that era. The alloy or plating of the head would have been more expensive than the brass heads commonly used in some models. Good to see that there are at least three or four other folks here that find these tools fascinating and worthy of collecting. wink Gil

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KY Jon
Amen

I have never posted this picture of me & a third cousin before. I'm the one wearing the suspenders or Braces for you Canadians.



Here is a picture of the old Church Building where this picture was made.



This building was erected in the 1830s & was used regularly for many years but has now sat idle for some time. An Uncle of mine became caretaker of it some years back. After his death, his Daughter, my First Cousin, & her Husband took it up as they were able. The Bingham branch of my family has held several Family Reunions there on the grounds. Also for some time services were held on an annual basis. Cousin Paul was the speaker on the day this picture was made, but I have also done the honors on a couple of occasions. This is located in Bedford County TN a short way from the small town of Bell Buckle, a stop on the old NC&STL railroad, now a part of CSX.


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I saw this Ideal 16 ga. roll crimper on ebay today. It's the same model as my 20 ga. Seller wants a pretty penny for it. Appears to be in very good condition but I'm not that interested in it. (Maybe too good of condition.)

https://tinyurl.com/yxusgp4q

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Several days ago, I wanted to post a pic of a Belding & Mull powder measure that I picked up at a flea market last Spring. I already had two of these, but they were missing the powder charge tubes, and most are found that way. This one had two charge tubes, so buying it gave me two complete measures. These could be used for measuring powder for shotshells, but they were prized by Bench Rest shooters because of their remarkable consistency. This thread is titled "Primitive Loading Tools", but many of theses tools are anything but primitive. Many have design and durability that makes them just as functional and useful now as they were when our Grandfathers used them.



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Keith;
Nice looking measure. I am trying to remember just how these worked for adjusting the charge. Were these set by adjusting the cavity depth in the drop tube & then the tube removed for dumping in the case?

Primitive was truly not the best word to have used for this thread, but I couldn't really think just what to use. Perhaps just Old Time would have been better. I can remember when these B&M measures were on the market, but don't recall when they were dropped. A lot of old-time technology was very good. Look how long the Lyman powder measures have been on the market with nothing but a few Face Lifts along the way. My much later #55 is basically the same as the #5 which goes back into the 1800s I believe.


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Miller, Keith,
You sure don't see much brass today like you see on the B&M measure. Nice find.

The wad tools arrived today. As Miller stated, the shell holder's mouth is slightly smaller than the ID of the paper hull so that the wad is easily shoehorned into place without tearing the paper hull. These are 2.5" paper Cheddites and they fit flush with the funnel tube which is perfect for my use. The spring plunger doesn't work as I envisioned. The end of the wad seating tool is solid so the wad doesn't go into the tube. It takes about 7 lbs. of pressure to bottom out the spring. For what purpose? I have over 500 16 Ga. Alacan Feltan-Bluestreak 5/16" ringed-wax wads. There were a few dozen more than the 500 indicated on the box. Note the MF symbol on the end of the seater. The wads go into the hull easily due to the step down function of the funnel. Insert wad into funnel end, push plunger on the wad, and Jacques your uncle.
PS: I was hoping that Mike (skeetx) would post up his Lyman belt driven roll crimpers. Unusual to say the least. They are hand turned and with the small pulley on the crimper head to build up rotation speed.

After obtaining a scanned copy of the Manufrance catalog (circa 1895) and using Google translate, it appears the above wad compressor has the spring in so that the powder isn't compacted beyond a certain weight of applied pressure. The device above it, sets the wad at a certain height, to ensure uniformity shell to shell. The one at the top, stuffs in the wad full speed ahead. Any of the above will work for my purposes with modern powder and the Alcan cards and wads. In my first post, I have photos of the same reloader, double end shot dipper and the 10 shell loading block. Manufrance eventually changed the design of the RTO to a more conventional, simpler design.







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Architect Louis Sullivan coined the term "Form follows function", and that seems to apply to a lot of these old tools. The elegant simplicity of Gil's tools illustrates that you don't need either a $1200.00 progressive loading press or expensive factory loads to feed our vintage doubles with appropriate loads. Speed is nice sometimes, but it isn't really necessary to produce enough quality shells for a season of bird hunting.

Miller, the charge tubes for the Belding & Mull Measures are indeed adjustable and volumetric. You set them for the desired charge, and the measure fills them. Then they are removed and dumped into the shell. Lather, rinse, repeat. The reason the B&M was so consistent is that the design incorporates two vessels or hoppers for powder. The brass upper hopper will naturally vary in depth and volume as you fill it, and gradually use it up. But with the B&M, the lower chamber with the little glass window fills up to the same level every time you pull the handle, and the next charge is taken from there, with no influence from the varying amount in the upper hopper. For bench rest and target shooters, consistent volume is more important than consistent weight, because the same charge can vary in weight by 1 or more percent just from the moisture content of the powder, due to changes in humidity. B&M made different charge tubes with small volumes for pistols and different larger sizes for larger rifle charges.

I've used a Lyman No.55 Powder Measure for years, and find it to be very consistent so long as I top off the hopper when it is drawn down about half way. And my Dad taught me to always use the same force and speed to operate the handle, and to make a habit of flipping my finger on the little knocker after each and every drop to knock loose any powder granules that might bridge or get stuck in the measure. Again, form follows function, and that little knocker that the competition chose to leave off their measures is something that makes the Lyman No.55 as good today as it was when it was introduced. As Miller says, basically the same design has worked well since the 1800's. Any problems with these simple tools can usually be traced to the guy who is using them.


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Thanks, Mike.

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Belding & Mull original docs:
Belding & Mull docs as PDF


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Not exactly a "loading" tool, but more of an "unloading" tool, and from the same era as some of the tools of which we posted photos. It's an old French game counter. Pheasants and partridges on one side, hares and rabbits on the other. It's from my family's estate in France. wink


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I've got a couple of different versions of the B&M measures with both brass and aluminum powder hoppers. I used to use them with my Scheutzen rifles but have since gone modern and use Harrel measures. When it comes to shotshells, I want to load quickly and a lot. I depend on my Spolar loader for that.


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I had given up looking for one of these W.Bartram type Capper decapper's then this very poor specimen nearly polished to within an inch of its existence appeared on eBay last week for not a lot of money. I could have made a good copy many years ago but machining Brass does not have the same colour as cast brass, cast has more Zinc, so it would stand out like a sore thumb with the other tools in the case. These cappers are extremely compact and very often found in top makers gun cases from the early to mid nineteenth centaury. Knowing that it is probably better to scrap the thing never the less I parted with the money for something that looks as if it had been used as a ball in a soccer match played on concrete. I do intend to restore it not rebuild it, even though the faults are near as dam it terminal. The Ebony handle is missing as well as its tang, the base plate is distorted also the threads in the plate are practically non existent so nothing will stay screwed in tightly, and as for the dents you can see for your self from the other photographs.







Given its condition I will put some effort to bring it back from the brink and make it fit for purpose once again. Though it is never going to be a thing of beauty, only a thing of worth.


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Damascus, looking forward to the "after" photos. Gil

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Recently acquired 16 ga. tools. Manufrance RTO, Manufrance wad seater ("rammer"), boxwood rammer with round knob and a spring loaded rammer with rosewood knob. Second photo is of a 16 ga. felt wad and over shot card punch. Gil


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Damascus, that group of loading items is interesting. I especially like the pliers, made to fit the pinfire pin. I have seen a couple of these over the years, in groups with other things or in cases. They are certainly handy for reloading pinfire cartridges, much handier than the screw pin pulling attachment at the base of the more common pinfire cap inserters. Thanks for sharing those.

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that reminded me that I've got an original complete set of Manufrance 'Nemrod' 12g reloading tools.

Is it worth putting this on ebay? & what should I ask for it?

best regards
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I believe the same unit was marketed in the US as the Thalson which was discussed earlier in the thread by 2-piper. Hard to say value; 12 ga. might be more desirable in the UK than on this side of the pond, but then not too many re-loaders in the UK judging from comments here. Shipping costs to the U.S. might be an issue, too. It appears to be a solid well-made tool. Gil

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I have no idea now what I gave for my Thalson. I have had it for a good many years but don't recall giving very much for it at all back then. May or may not be increased collector value in it now.
It is pictured on page 2 of this thread, does your Nemrod look similar?


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yes, the same as in the pic on page 2
In the original box and with original instructions in English.
Can't remember how long I had them - probably 1960's...
Gunter

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Gunter, it may hold interest with British wildfowlers some who still handload. I don't have his contact info, but Nick Horten of Langstone Wildfowlers may have an idea of who would be interested on your side of the pond. Gil

PS: here's a link to the association above.
https://www.ladwaca.com/

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Some of mine

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Here's an evolution of design change by Manufrance over the years both in 16 ga. The left one appears that it required more machining than the more modern design on the right. The earlier design was from the late 1800s until some time in the 20th Century and both overlapped in later catalogs. The chrome plated part on which slides the shell holder is trapezoidal in cross section and if slightly bent makes closure more difficult. The newer version appears to be less complicated in design and manufacture. In discussing with someone more knowledgeable than I about the manufacture of reloading tools, I commented that it appeared that MF was the only manufacturer that made both tools and guns. I was corrected and told that Winchester made some for the American market which were sold under different brands. Gil

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I am looking for old 8-bore and4-bore reloading equipment..

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From the UK:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RARE-QUALITY-ENGINEERED-4g-BORE-DE-RECAPPING-RELOADING-TOOL-WILDFOWLING-WAGBI/372611875708?hash=item56c166037c:g:124AAOSw~65cc~gC&frcectupt=true

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Can't help but think of Miller, the OP, who started this thread. He is missed. Last month I found this old French reloading balance beam scale sold by Manufrance. It is missing 3 weights which fit in holes depicted in the open drawer. The scale is shown in the catalog page of MF reloading equipment upthread in a post by me on 2/19/19. It is delicately made from brass and steel. Gil


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