doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Thoughts on this Purdey 12 gauge

There's a notable difference between sleeving and refinishing.

That being said, the last thing any of us need are more regulations and requirements as to what we must do with our guns.

Sleeving a gun detracts from its value and (usually) visual appeal because it is non-original. Putting further stamps on it would just worsen the situation.

Eightbore, you are comparing apples and oranges. A "refinished gun indistinguishable from new" has nothing directly to do with safety. A sleeved gun is one in which the barrels were chopped off near the breech and new tubes welded in place. That means that the barrels no longer are as proofed. That has a LOT to do with safety. While we may not require a sleeved gun to be reproofed in the US, a buyer ought to at least have the benefit of such a major change be made known to him. To do otherwise is an attempt to decieve, in my opinion.

APS, I think we all would appreciate you asking Mr. Merrington about this. Thanks.

I'll disagree. I feel a re-finish and a sleeve job are vastly different. A hidden sleeve job to me is akin to restamping the numbers on a replaced Corvette motor to match the original frame. The work is being done to fool the general public....not very ethical in my opinion. A wall thickness gage is of great use, no doubt. There also is more to barrels than just wall thickness. Things like rivelling, loose ribs and bulges, which slip by many many shotgunners. The gents running that proof house inspect barrels all day long, year after year. I tend to think they may have learned something over those years. Your comments about what may have happened to an old gun since its last proof have merit. I still feel that the Brit proof system combined with some knowledge and a few gages can tell the real story. I've heard you mention poorly struck barrels in the past. I find this to be very rare. You have to really go out of your way to remove that much metal from the outside of the barrels. Most tubes that have poor wall thickness ended up that way by being bored out.
Steve

A bit confused on the subject of sleeving?

Proper sleeving has no welding involved in it. Monks patent No. 1222 of 1881 makes mention of soldering, brazing, or shrinking the tubes in place. The most commonly used is simple low temperature solder.

Welding would be a bit intense for typical gun barrel steel, and downright scary on damascus.

The guns that have been for sale on Kirk's website in the past always noted "sleeved" if that was the case. "Buyer beware" shouldn't be morphing into "gunsmith beware for buyer", unless you pay the gunsmith for that service.

If Kirk did indeed do the sleeving, safety isn't an issue.
Best,
Ted

Ted,
you need to get up to speed....the old techniques used soft solder. Nowdays with a good tig machine the seam can be eliminated completely. Many people who offer sleeving use this method as it is cosmetically superior. A good Tig machine is not too intense for the job and is actually suited to much finer work. Ever hear of micro welding? My machine can weld tin cans together without worries of burning through the thin metal. My how technology has changed.
Steve

SKB,
Kirk doesn't use a welder. When David McKay Brown had time to sleeve guns, he didn't use a welder. Westly Richards doesn't use a welder for sleeving either, and their guns must still pass proof.
Kirk's seams are invisible to the naked eye, but, you could see it with a 10X glass or so.
No offense, but, I'll take Kirk's sleeving work on guns over welding hands down.
Best,
Ted

Ted,
I believe John Foster sleeves many times the amount of guns Merrington does...all his pass proof, and he uses a tig machine as far as I know. There is more than one way to skin a cat. I just thought maybe you might like to know how the rest of the world has progressed since 1881.
Steve

I'm quite aware of progress, but, the discussion involved Mr. Merrington, and how he does the work (skins the cat) sent to him.

Perhaps you should pay attention to the discussion?
Best,
Ted

I thought the discussion was about a Purdey shotgun. Maybe I was mistaken. Were you not the gent that suggested some of the board was confused as to methods used for sleeving? I believe I can read such a statement just a few posts back.
Steve

It started about a Purdey, what 9 pages ago?

True enough, welding is used today, by some. But, the last page seems to have centered around Kirk's work, and guns not stamped with sleeved nomenclature on them. Kirk doesn't weld tubes into the cut off breech.

The very great majority of sleeved guns in the world today are going to have been sleeved the old fashioned way, and it will be that way for a long time to come.
Best,
Ted