doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Mismatched Win 21 for $3,525 -- What am I missing?

The seller said on November 23:


Link to the auction is here

Do we think the winning bidder, who bid $3,525 on November 24, and the two next highest bidders, who bid $3,225 and $3,500 on November 30, didn't know or didn't care about the mismatch.



Personally, unless I really knew the market, or really wanted to shoot this 12 gauge IM/Full solid rib 12 gauge gun, I would not pay this kind of money on a mismatched anything.

I probably won't remain mismatched very long. I probably won't remain a plain jane very long.

A good start for an upgrade project if you like 21's and don't mind 12ga guns.

No one even cared what the bbl length was.

How can it not stay mismatched?
Are you saying that someone would grind and restamp the numbers to match the receiver?

Hello,,welcome to the real world.
....and you wouldn't even know it....

Yep. Happens all the time. See the same thing in high grade Foxes/Parkers. Sometimes the original barrels are bulged etc and are replaced with other that are fit to the receiver and reengraved etc. Not hard to do at all for a pro engraver. In the case of the Foxes, the original barrel roll stamping machine is out there.

I don't believe I've ever seen a Model 21 with that much DAH.

Something stinks.

Had a friend show me how it is done 40 years ago. I believe that it is common on high grade shotguns that justify the cost. NO heat required.

bill

I assume there is no NFA problem changing the serial number of the barrels to match the receiver

Also, is the forearm wood stamped with the serial number underneath, that would seem hard to fake.

And if Cody has the receiver on file, what is the chance the mismatched barrels match the Cody letter

There is an old saying..."it ain't illegal if you don't get caught".

Of course altering Serial Numbers is not cricket! Of course it is done. I have been in this industry for 37 years now. I am amazed at how many NIB guns over 100 years old are for sale. Or how many upgraded guns there are with serial numbers altered to fit known records. Few check for duplication of ownership provenance, just does the gun match number to grade.

As an example of how it is done: 1997 was my first year as a vendor at Tulsa Gun Show. I was newly moved to MO. from OR. so I took advantage of the 4 hour drive to purchase a table for my business. While walking around I found a Weatherby dealer selling
4 rifles as NIB. I recognized my work as being done within the past year. I also recognized the bluing job to be from a shop in Vancouver, WA. I mentioned to the dealer that NIB was not appropriate for these 4 guns. He said he bought them from another dealer who claimed they were. I had to produce my ATF Bound Book to convince him they were not NIB. Which I did. I do not know how long the NIB label stayed off after I left. Oh, the dealer who sold them NIB....was my client. We had a long conversation when I got home.

Several decades ago I had a 20 A grade Fox which was a little rough. Sold it and was surprised to see it was a high condition gun a year later. Called the dealer and asked about the gun. He gushed with enthusiasm about what a factory gem it was. I asked who did the work to which he said it was all Philly original. When I asked him if he wanted before refinish photos he got quiet. I explained I sold him the gun a year earlier. Then he hung up.

There are high grade factory original guns out there. Might be as high as ten percent of all listed for sale. When I see high grade, high condition or rare guns for sale I take it with a large grain of salt.

You can alter the barrel serial number with zero problem. Alter the receiver serial number and the feds will come looking for you. In the case of Fox, Jason Barden still has original factory barrels in the white with no serial number on the barrel flats. Buy the blanks, fit them to the receiver (with a ton of work btw) and bingo, you have a new barrel matched to the receiver.

That is mostly correct, the exception being anyone with a manufactures license can alter the serial # on a receiver legally.

Forgive me for sounding flippant here but, who cares?

Just anyone who wants to know if a gun is really original or not. Original meaning, as shipped.

SRH

How did Crossed Chisel's put it? "It's had 7 handles and 3 head's, but it's still King Alfred's axe."

Or, it's still a Win model 21.

Whomever wants it won't care about the numbers.

It�s the Pony. Everybody wants a Winchester and many buy looks not knowing much about the guns . I have had that disease now cured

Boats

This isin't the same thing, but I was looking at a Colt Model M at a gun show that had a very attractive price and I noticed that the serial # had the wrong font. I brought to the dealer's attn. and he was quick to show me it matched the serial # under the slide. When I asked if the appropriate paperwork had been filed with the ATF due to changing the serial #, he became loud and belligerent telling me, " master gunsmith did that, there's nothing wrong with it!"

Needless to say, I walked away...

They can, but not on any given day.

The ATF must approve moving the s/n, changing the s/n or otherwise altering. it. All BEFORE the work is done.

Where do you see that in the guide book? I had to assign a serial # to a couple of guns recently and called to talk with a specialist about it. She told me to pick any number that is not a duplicate in my books and carry on. I see no place in the guide book that states you need prior permission. I could be wrong and have been in the past.
Steve

PT Barnum gun. Not his gun, per say, but, a gun custom built for a mark, er, customer, of the type he so well described.


Best,
Ted

Ahhh, the tyranny of authenticity. The curse of the collector.

Perhaps it's just a hell of a nice handling gun and it shoots where it's pointed.

For what they are, all Win21s are overpriced in the NA marketplace and that is simply because of a vibrant collector market.

I doubt very much the purchaser had a chance to shoot the gun before he won the auction. As already pointed out, it has a suspicious amount of DAH for a 21.

Hey, I hope whoever bought it is happy. But, I�d actually bet we see it in the not too distant future, listed on multiple online auction sites, at near 5K, waiting years for the next mark, er, collector.

We will see.

Best,
Ted

If the barrels are sound, they'd bring 2 grand.

Bob. When was the last time that you saw a good set of tight choked 30 In. Model 21 Barrels, any gauge , for sale.????

Ted, you are just confirming my point.

What's your point?
With fewer than 36,000 Model 21's produced,
$3525 isn't a terrible price to pay considering the barrels alone (if sound) could fetch 2 grand.

They built at least one too many:

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=101104672


Best,
Ted

I got a question Mr.Sheet'fer Brains

Why are you so envious ?

Truth is you have not a clue on anything.

What you don�t realize, my lard assed friend, is you saying someone, anyone, doesn�t have a clue, is fair testament, they actually do.

Best,
Ted

If you think about it,
Lightweight Aluminum Model 21 is kind of an oxymoron.

jOe, you're just a regular moron.

So how much does it weigh? In the description seller says it "Weighs in at 6 lbs". Then down in the Specs, it says 5.15 lbs. I don't believe I'll spend $25,000 to find out. Fact is I've never seen an aluminum framed gun I truly liked. Paint me old fashioned, but where guns are involved I like Steel & Walnut.

TeddybOy don't you love it when I "dance" through your head...

Left coast bOb only reply I got for you is how soon is soon enough for the left coast to fall into the Pacific ocean....

if'n I knew the day I'd buy your bud Shiet'fer brains a one way ticket.

World would be a better place for sure.

I love it when you quote yourself.



Put that picture of you and your pal back up. I think you two were holding hands. Good illustration of why you needed parts replaced.

Best,
Ted

I quoted myself so you wouldn't miss it Teddy'bOy

I've had six pound 20 gauge Model 21s with steel frames. I would want an aluminum 21 to weight about 5 1/4 pounds.