doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com American Shells in British Doubles

Are there any factory 1-oz. loads in 12 gauge loaded here that have pressures less than 10,000 psi?

Yes, I'm well aware of RSTs...and so I'm really asking about low-pressure loads available from Rio, Remington, Federal, Winchester and any of the other larger commercial cartridge makers.

Same question asked another way:

For owners of British 12-bore guns with 2 3/4-inch chambers and 3 1/4-ton proofs, are there low-pressure loads currently manufactured in the U.S.? (As many already know, the 3 1/4-ton proof equates to 10,000 psi or a little less.)

Any guidance appreciated.

Have you tried loading your own?

B&P Comp1's
Herter's 1oz LR cartridges

The Winchester �Low Noise and Recoil� rounds run less than 10,000.

8400, if memory serves.

Best,
Ted

Rios are European CIP proof marked shells. Check their web page for service pressure data. Not all will be sub 10,000 psi.

If buying American made, RSTs and Polywads are your best bets for lower pressure loads. But check the manufacturer�s data for the shells you are buying. These two companies make Saami pressure loads as well.

Many Herter�s shells are also CIP marked. Again, check the manufacturer�s data for details on the loads you are looking at before purchase.

Reloading is your best option. 12 ga handloads are easy to keep under 10000 psi with readily available reloading components.

Lots of 7/8oz loads from Kent and Fiocchi. I think NobelSport and Clever Mirage are available in 1oz low pressure loads, but my sources have dried up. Need to find some.

Years ago (2005ish?) there was a lot of chatter on various boards about Winchester Super-X (silver box) shells from Italy and Australia. Word was that they were fairly low pressure and soft shooting, and a good choice for older doubles. I have not seen any published data, but I bought an awful lot of those shells and they seem to live up to the rumors. Shot them in an 1880s Brit laminated steel hammer gun with good results.

If you try the B & P Comp Ones you'd better have loads of extra firing pin protrusion, or they will misfire. I've got lots of guns, vintage and modern, they will not shoot reliably in. Smaller diameter heads than most other shells.

SRH

There is the AA Light and the AA Low Noise/Recoil. I can't find where I got the idea but I thought the Low Noise was significantly less than 8400 and the 8400 sounds more like what the "Light" was. I have a couple flats of the Low Noise and can barely hear or feel them. (Exaggerating only slightly).

Kent has a new load (Excel?) that's down in the 7000 psi range.

Gamebore pure gold are low pressure and work well especially in the 28gram load.

If the gun is in proof you can use any CIP cartridge of the correct length.

Recently purchased boxes of Herter and Rio 2 3/4" cartridges I have are CIP. Check the boxes of other imported ammunition and if the say "CIP M" you can use them.

My wife hates the 1 ounce 16 gauge Rio's @ 1300 fps because they kick like the proverbial mule - she much prefers the Remington 1 ounce @ 1200 fps and the Herter's 1 ounce @ 1165. I'd stay away from the Rio's because of recoil but if your gun is in proof and good condition they will be safe pressure wise.

I have used B&P Comp 1'S 7/8 ounce loads and Cleaver Featherlight's in my Purdey and Atkin with much success.

Also there is a brand called Esencia I believe being sold by my guy out of Florida.
You can get them in 2 1/2 in 3/4 ounce and 7/8 ounce

Any of the non-magnum B&P offerings should be fine. The nice thing is that if you go to the Italian site, you get pressure curves for all of their products. For example, the link below is for their F2 hunting line. Click on the Info link for each cartridge to get pressure and velocity.

Bruce

https://www.baschieri-pellagri.com/en/catalogo/cartucce+da+caccia/f2/1/index.aspx

Thanks for the responses.

In examining boxes of Remington Gun Club (12 gauge, 1 ounce loads) and Winchester Target (1 ounce and 1 1/8 loads) shells, I see some encouraging marks.

They all carry the CIP imprint. The Remington box even has a BNP mark with crown...and so I'm assuming they're considered safe to be fired in British guns within proof and with 2 3/4" chambers.

I'll take a look at B&P and Rio boxes when I find them.

Unless I'm misunderstanding something, it looks as if there are several American shells (besides RST) that qualify as lower-pressure loads.

I have used Winchester Light, Extra Light and Low Recoil. Three different loads. The light struck me as not so light. The Low Recoil velocity was enough under 1000 FPS to be a good target load. The Extra Light was excellent, low recoil, low pressure, but enough velocity to crush targets.

Are you talking 12ga, Stan? I've only shot them in a couple of different 28ga guns. Zero issues. A guy who likely kills more grouse than anyone I know also uses them in his 28ga and recommends them highly. I've never used them in 12ga, but appreciate the warning if that's where you've had problems.

Re. B&P 12 ga comp 1 shells. I've shot 2 different lot#s of the 7/8 oz 12 ga Comp 1 load in a Perazzi DC12, 2 different W&S 700 series guns, a Piotti & a CSMC 21 w/o an issue. I did recently hear of someone finding a 12 ga 7/8 oz Comp 1 shell w/o a primer.

I like that load a lot & if there is any difference in the headspace (rim thickness) between the Comp 1 & the 2 1/2" 12 ga High Pheasant which I've also had no issues with & shot a lot of in different 12 ga guns I'm unable to measure it.

Both of those loads are on the Gordon type hull.

Yes, 12 ga. Larry. Comp Ones. I've tried them in an A H Fox BE grade, a Browning BSS, an A H Fox Sterlingworth and a MX8 Perazzi. So far, the only gun that will reliably shoot them is the P gun, and that is based on just a few shells. I'm determined to find one of my vintage doubles that will shoot up these two flats I've got.

See this thread for further info on them. You'll see the problem is not limited to 12 ga. only.

http://forum.foxcollectors.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=7773

SRH

BM, it's not rim thickness, it's diameter that is the culprit. See the above thread link for measurements.

Best, SRH

Thanks. I've shot probably a flat total in a couple modern 28ga sxs: Parker Repro and B. Rizzini BR 550. No issues. I picked them up initially because of the price (about $80/flat out the door). Then the grouse hunter I know chimed in on the discussion and recommended them highly. He shoots them in an OU--and those sometimes can be sensitive to issues like rim thickness because of their angled firing pins, but he hasn't had any.

I noted that the only 28ga mentioned in the link was a Model 21. Wonder whether it was original Winchester (not many of those!) or, probably more likely, a modern Galazan gun. Although in your case, your problems aren't all in vintage guns.

Hmm, don't recall ever seeing CIP or British proof marks on Remington Gun Clubs. Will have to check some of my boxes. Only Winchesters I have seen with them were loaded in Australia. I would expect any Rem, Federal or Winchester ammo loaded in the US to be SAAMI pressures.

Yes, check your boxes of Gun Clubs...I was surprised to see the BNP mark.

British guns eject American shells much more forcefully--because they are ejecting "ungrateful colonists..."

Just checked some 20ga Gun Clubs, 7/8 oz. They do carry the CIP logo. More surprising: I have an older box of Remington Express 16ga, 1 1/8 oz, 1295 fps. Also with the CIP logo.

I just looked at 4 cases of Remington 12 gauge shells I have, 2 Nitro Steel 3" and 2 game loads of 1 oz @ 1290 fps. Both Nitro Steel cases had the CIP and Crown over BNP logos in the lower right corner, and one of the two Game Loads did