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Hello all,

Its a Jones underlever black powder express double rifle. Can you tell the caliber of this double rifle by these barrel markings? Is it a 450 bpe or a 500 bpe?


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If 40 is the bore diameter, then a 40 bore is .488" in diameter.

I think I'd just slug the bore and do a chamber cast with Cerrosafe to be certain.


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Hello keith,

Thanks for the reply.

I'm not in possession of the rifle so I can't do a chamber cast. I'm just trying to determine what caliber it might be. Seems like .488 would be oversize for a 45 cal., and undersized for a 50 cal.

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I don't know what diameter bullets are used in the .500 BPE rifles. .006" deep grooves in a .488" bore would put you right at .500" for groove diameter.

But the groove diameter of my .450 BPE rifle is right at .458", and I'm going to try to alter a .452" caliber mold to drop a .452" diameter bullet of about 300 grains that I can paper patch to groove diameter.

EDIT: I see references to either .510" or .512" diameter bullets for .500 BPE. I'm stumped too.


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As noted above, this would likely be a .500 BPE rifle

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Originally Posted By: keith
I don't know what diameter bullets are used in the .500 BPE rifles. .006" deep grooves in a .488" bore would put you right at .500" for groove diameter.

But the groove diameter of my .450 BPE rifle is right at .458", and I'm going to try to alter a .452" caliber mold to drop a .452" diameter bullet of about 300 grains that I can paper patch to groove diameter.

EDIT: I see references to either .510" or .512" diameter bullets for .500 BPE. I'm stumped too.

Hello Keith,

Thanks for the reply.

When the British marked the "gauge" like this one .. "40" ... was that intended to be the "bore" dia. or the "groove" dia.

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Bore diameter; based on the size of the plug gauge that the barrel would accept; rifling, of course, is deeper/larger diamter. If Henry rifled, it could be quite a bit deeper.

My .500#2 BPE is proofed at 39

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Cadet is correct, it's bore diameter. Also, keep in mind this does not indicate an "Exact" bore diameter. It meant that at time of proof the bore would accept a 40 gauge plug of .488" diameter but would not accept a 39 gauge plug of .492" diameter. The actual diameter of bore could have been anywhere in between.
The difference between your bore marked 40 & cadets marked 39 may be no more than a couple of thousandths. Even if they were both to exact size it would only be .004" difference.


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Originally Posted By: 2-piper
Cadet is correct, it's bore diameter. Also, keep in mind this does not indicate an "Exact" bore diameter. It meant that at time of proof the bore would accept a 40 gauge plug of .488" diameter but would not accept a 39 gauge plug of .492" diameter. The actual diameter of bore could have been anywhere in between.
The difference between your bore marked 40 & cadets marked 39 may be no more than a couple of thousandths. Even if they were both to exact size it would only be .004" difference.

Hello 2-piper,

Hello cadet,

Thanks for the reply.

So its possible that a .510 dia 50 cal bullet would still be a correct fit to function in a barrel stamped "40"? That could account for .011" deep engraving of a bullet. I suppose that would be OK for paper-patch lead bullets, but seems like it would be a little much if using Woodleigh jacketed 50 cal bpe bullets.

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I would not like to use jacketed bullets in a soft steel gun
Cast is the way to go in my opinion.

But LOTS of folks use jacketed

https://www.africahunting.com/threads/acquired-a-500-nitro-for-black-now-what.23002/

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I would not be putting jacketed .510" bullets down that bore. Grease groove or paper patch all the way, smaller than .510". Cheaper than Woodleighs that way, too. At a guess, with a nominal bore of .490"ish, plus 2x a groove depth of a nominal .006"ish, something a tad over .500" will be roughly what you'll need; but it'll also depend on the rifling. Is it Henry? Henry rifling can have some taper in the bore. Sometimes. Slug and chamber/throat cast will be important here.

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cadet, I'm assuming the roughly .500" dia. lead bullets you recommend would be grease groove, and paper patch slugs for this particular rifle would be close to bore diameter before patching, correct?


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I can't answer that simply, Keith, and I can't profess to be an expert. So with those caveats: probably yes, but there's so many variables: what's the throat like? If tapered, larger (lead) bullets can be used, and they can swage into the bore proper. BP or smokeless? It's generally accepted that BP will kick a slightly smaller diameter lead bullet in the bum and bump it up to fill the grooves. Patched or grease grooved is another variable. Alloy - hard v soft...
Sometimes you've just got to - pardon the pun - bite the bullet, make some arbitrary choices, and just throw some lead down range and see what it does, and make some educated guesses based on what evidence can be gleaned about why it's happening the way it is, then tweak a variable here and there. We can be confident it's some sort of (nominal) .500 Express, but we'd need to know the chambering, so we can make an educated guess about what powder charge and bullet weight it was regulated for. Back in the day, it may have had its own mould, or may have just been fed generic off-the-shelf cartridges of whatever diameter was in use.
Graeme Wright's "Shooting the British Double Rifle" is a great starting point; Paul Matthews' "The Paper Jacket" another.

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With a rifle like this the standard practice is to cast the chambers and slug the bores before you start your planning on the loading process.

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AND insure the cartridge will chamber with the selected diameter of bullet.

On the other hand, I try to use the largest cast bullet that will seat in the case and still chamber in the large caliber, BIG cased rifles.

I bet I get some comments on the last statement smile


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Skeetx,
You won't get any argument from me for that. As a general rule, black powder rifles used lead bullets, bore sized or smaller, counting on black powder to bump them up. They needed space for black powder residue. Most of us prefer lead bullets around .002-003" over groove diameter, when using smokeless powder in black powder rifles. This creates a case where the preferred bullet to fit the barrel may not chamber. Of course people that don't mind using black powder in their old rifles can still use smaller bullets, counting on them to "slug up". My 43 Mauser M71 has .452" groove diameter, but won't chamber a cartridge with .452" bullet, unless I make it think it is a heeled bullet. With .446" "proper" bullets, it won't shoot, but with .452"(.454" won't fit seating die), it will. The lesson here is try "one", before you load an ammo can full.
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Well,

The rifle is in hand. Its a James Macnaughton and it turns out to be a variation of a 577-500 No.2. Not sure if the "40" stamp makes any more sense now. Its got a 7-groove bore and near as I can measure its .506 - .507dia. That seems undesize. ? ? There is a strange "star" stamp on each barrel above the chamber. Anyone know what those means? (see pics)

Anyone have any suggestions or comments?












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Buck, that 40 is a mark from the proofing process that identifies the bore diameter of the barrel before the grooves are cut.

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Your .506/.507 number - that's the *groove* diameter that you are stating there, no?
What is the smaller number - what is the *bore* diameter of your rifle?

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36 gauge is .506". If the bore is that big it should have been stamped as a 36, not a 40. As stated earlier the 40 stamp would indicate a "Bore" that would accept a .488" gage but not a .492" one. This would give groove depths of from .007"-.009" per side. I think this would be normal for a Black Powder rifle shooting lead bullets.


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Originally Posted By: Tinker
Your .506/.507 number - that's the *groove* diameter that you are stating there, no?
What is the smaller number - what is the *bore* diameter of your rifle?

Hello Tinker,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, that's the "groove" dia as measured on the chamber cast. Since its an odd number of grooves, I can't measure the the bottom of the grooves to get the "bore" dia of the casting, and I don't have any way to take a measurement of the barrel.

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gauge pins are the best way of measuring a hole or the bore in this case. Several members of the ACGG are not far from you. You might contact one and see if they could measure it for you.


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Hello SKB

Thanks for the reply.

Not that important. Its the groove dia that determines what I intend to reload.

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How are you getting the measurements on your five features of that casting?

Are you sure of your number?

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what 5 features?

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buckstix,
A typical set of "small hole gages", together with a Mic or caliper will provide a decent measurement of a bore( not grooves) of up to .500, right from the barrels. You simply insert the appropriate one, expand it until it stops, remove it, and measure with a micrometer or caliper. Your local machinist/hobby machinist/ gunsmith or some handloaders may have a set.
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Hello Der Ami,

Thanks for the reply.

As I said earlier, its not that important. Its the groove dia that determines what I intend to reload.
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Originally Posted By: buckstix
what 5 features?



The five high spots that describe your groove diameter

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Originally Posted By: Der Ami

A typical set of "small hole gages", together with a Mic or caliper will provide a decent measurement of a bore
Mike



Mike

This method doesn't work out with an odd number of grooves.
As you likely know, the small hole gage takes a dimension across two points at 180 degrees from each other - and with am odd number of grooves that dimension would be land-to-groove, not land-to-land or groove-to-groove.

Taking a measurement of the bore diameter with pin gages (which will get you very close to that number), then measuring with a small hole gage can get you very close to the actual groove diameter but it will take a bit of math to get you there.

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Tinker,
No, the small hole gages are either ball end or half ball end and the appropriate size should bridge the groove. They are limited to 1/2" holes. You are thinking about the much larger "T" shaped ones that go to well over 3". Note I said "decent" measurement, I concede it may be a fraction of a thou. off.
Mike

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Don't over-think the bore diameter. A soft lead bullet that fits case and barrel well enough ought to be fine - let BP kick it in the backside to bump up. Regulation is where the headache is likely to be.

The stars stamped on the breech are an interesting thing: I've seen them before on ex-military weapons; applied in service to denote some level of corrosion in the barrel - if on the breech, corrosion in the chamber; if ahead of the breech, in the barrel. Whether they have that application in this case I have no idea.

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Originally Posted By: cadet
".....The stars stamped on the breech are an interesting thing: I've seen them before on ex-military weapons; applied in service to denote some level of corrosion in the barrel - if on the breech, corrosion in the chamber; if ahead of the breech, in the barrel. Whether they have that application in this case I have no idea...."

Hello cadet,

Thanks for the reply.

I don't think that's the case here because the chambers and bores are in very good condition.

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whats the wall thickness at the muzzles?


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Originally Posted By: gunmaker
whats the wall thickness at the muzzles?

Hello Aaron,

Thanks for the repy.

Wall thickness at the muzzles is .130"

Why do you ask?

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While a small hole gage is admittedly spherical it also has to be small enough to go in the smallest hole of its range. It too will measure two points 180 apart. It will thus give a false reading with an odd number of lands & grooves. Depending on the width of the grooves it may or may not reach the bottom.
The "Original" question in this thread included the "40" mark on the barrels. This mark applies to the "Bore" diameter, thus the ensuing comments on that subject.

Technically speaking the caliber of a rifle is its bore size. No doubt, in this case, the 40 was the correct marking under the old Gauge system. Makers have taken such liberty in naming their creations that in many cases neither bore nor bullet diameter is actually described by the cartridge's name. A couple of examples which immediately spring to mind are the .44-40 & .38-40 Winchester cartridges.


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Originally Posted By: Der Ami
Tinker,
No, the small hole gages are either ball end or half ball end and the appropriate size should bridge the groove. They are limited to 1/2" holes. You are thinking about the much larger "T" shaped ones that go to well over 3". Note I said "decent" measurement, I concede it may be a fraction of a thou. off.
Mike



Hi Mike

I was speaking of small hole gages, not telescoping gages.
I've been working with measuring tools and machining equipment since 1973

I see what you are illustrating with the small hole gages suggestion - and I acknowledge your work-around, but I maintain that a small hole gage mesurement represents a distance across two points. Also note that an engineer or technician can employ a small hole gage outside it's range in order to reach features that are crowded by other features.
In the context of a 500 bpe bore, a telescoping gage could be too bulky, but a small hole gage from the smaller end of the range may be used to read the dimension between a land and a groove in some odd-groove barrels depending on groove width and the width of the measuring surfaces of the gage employed.

I have used small hole gages, telescoping gages, pin gages, and numerous other tools to evaluate the dimensions of bore features.
At times things can end up being a little complicated, and interesting work-arounds like your example can be very useful.

There are also numerous ways to accurately measure the casting shown above,

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2-piper,
Of course, properly presented plug gauges give the best measurement, but they are expensive enough that fewer people have them than have small hole gages, which give a decent measurement. The plug gauges come in .001" steps, so even if properly presented can result in .0009" error. With regard to nominal vs actual bullet diameters, other examples include 38 Super, 38 Special, 38 S&W, 38 Long Colt, 38 WCF, and 38-55; not to mention all the nominal designations for 22 caliber rifles.
Mike

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Tinker,
I defer to your superior experience, but I have to use the tools I have, to do the best I can.
Mike

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And it's always good to look outside the box.
I like your ingenuity.

By the way, I often prefer the small hole gage over the plug or pin gage, which by the way come in plus and minus sizes, so there is a greater range of measurements available with them than you might think.
The advantage to using the small hole gage is that it can/will show you if your bore is out of round, and what the numbers are in that situation. Few bores are actually round.

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The .38 line of cartridges started life in the rimfire era using outside lubricated heel bullets which were actually a nominal .38" in size. With the desire for inside lubricated bullets, bullet diameter was dropped to fit inside the case & a hollow base was used to expand & fill the rifling, thus was born the .357" diameter bullet. The .38 S&W began life with an inside lubricated bullet, but apparently simply played upon the popularity of the "38" name. The .38 WCF was the same as .38-40 & also used the popular name of 38 as they were a nominal
.40 caliber. The .38-55 Ballard used as I recall a bullet of about .378" diameter so is a nominal .38 caliber if bullet size rather than bore size is used.

There are plenty of other examples, including the .22's you mentioned, .22, .220, .218, .219, .224 & etc.

I spent 35+ years as a machinist so I have used all these methods of measuring. You will get close with the small hole gauge in the bore with an odd number of grooves. The biggest problem would likely be if trying to check a size against the stamped marking, you might read it a bit oversize. If the bore marked 40 was close to the upper limit it might read as a 39 size.

Not a big deal, but would not prove the proof house's mark to be wrong.


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Hello All,

Thanks for your reply.

Now that I've determined that its a 577-500 No.2 chambering, all the back and forth banter about measuring the bores isn't necessary.

I'd really like to know the answer to the question: "... What is the meaning of the "stars" stamped on the breech end of the barrels over the chambers?..."

They are located almost exactly at the center of each chamber. They appear to have been stamped "after" the last refinishing / re-blackening based on the raised edges.



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Hello,

As the picture showed in my 5th post, I made a chamber cast which extends into the rifling. These barrels have 7-groove Henry-Style rifling which makes measuring across the lands difficult. Nearest can I measure is 0.506" - 0.507" groove dia.

Today I lathe turned a ball gauge to measure the bore diameter. It measured exactly 0.490" in both barrels. This would explain why the barrel flats are marked "40" and not "39". When gauging the bore a 39 gauge would not fit, but a 40 gauge would. (see chart)


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Yep, as part of my "Banter" that was the figures, I posted on the bore diameter. .488" for 40 & .492" for 39. Even though you asked about the 40 mark in your original post I got the impression you didn't truly appreciate us answering that part.

The actual cartridge to use could of course only be determined by the chamber cast so was not of any use to try & answer that part without dimensions from the cast.


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Hello 2-piper,

Thanks for your reply.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your input. But I'm not sure if all the side-tracked back-and-forth debate between forum members on how to measure the bores, and how the gauges worked, and how to use them, really had anything to do with my post. I'm not a machinist and didn't have any of those gauges or access to them.

I simply turned a ball, kept decreasing its size and testing it in the barrels, until I felt a "slip-fit" into the bores - and then I measured it with a micrometer - hence the 0.490" measurement.

.
anyway -
.

Here's the results of today's shooting.

Although I never did precisely measure the chamber cast, I got some "new" 577-500 No.2 cases which seemed to match the chamber cast. I inserted the new brass in the chambers, and they easily fit - even when loaded. I loaded 3 different bullets, an fired them. (see below) After firing, I tried slippng some of the .511 dia bullets back into the fired brass, and it was a very close "slide-fit" - perfect!

I'll test some more loads with slightly more powder to increase velocity. Pressures with all 3 loads were light with easy extraction with the fingers.

I hate paper patching so I use that method only as a last resort. Based on my results below, I don't think I'll need to go there.

The gas-checked bullets were both .511" dia and the Woodleigh SP bullets were .510" dia. This rifle really likes the Woodleigh bullets. I think all went well.






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Stix,what's the foam?

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Originally Posted By: justin
Stix,what's the foam?
Hello justin,

Thanks for the reply.

Its 1/2" dia "backing rod" cut to length. You can buy it at the local hardware store. Its available in 1/4", 3/8", 1/2", 5.8", 3/4", and 1" dia x 25 foot length. Or, you can find it on amazon in 100 foot lengths. That's where I buy it.

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Thanks

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You are welcome.

I'm still trying to discover the meaning of the "stars"stamped on the barrels.

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