doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com C. Stiegele Jun. Cape Gun

Cape Gun is more of a British term, but this is a sxs 2 barrel affair, 16 ga left and uncertain rifle right. Stiegele-Jagd is still in business in Munich, but the family had to sell out in 1927 due to the "riotous lifestyle" of the 3rd generation, C. Stiegele Junior (from Stiegele-Jagd webpage). It's his name on the firearm. My extended family includes several Bavarian hunters, so I couldn't resist the Munich make. I will include pictures when I have it in hand.

I'm asking for "nominations" for rifle caliber possibilities, given the starting point of a chamber cast by the seller. He measured it as 11.7x51R Danish. The time frame is right, but that is a Danish military round chambered in Remington Rolling Blocks. But neither I nor the seller can find a similarly dimensioned round. It's not too far from 45-70, but it's shorter by a couple mm.

I like working with obsolete rounds and have a fair amount of experience loading blackpowder. So, what's your guess for a straight-walled (maybe some taper), 46 caliber, 2" case?

Maybe some variant based on the 450 BPE? Possibly the 11.5X50R Werndl / 11.3X51R but the dimensions of the base, neck & rim are needed to narrow the culprit.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

45-60 Winchester BUT the Danish really sounds right to me

and folks will fuss, but I use Rem 45-70 brass for my Danish

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/860270...-nose-box-of-20

https://www.buffaloarms.com/11-7x51r-danish-loaded-black-powder-ammunition-box-of-20-amo11751rb

Whatever it is, I would use lead bullets and not jacketed.

Thanks for the inputs. Would that it were a 45-60. I already load that for my brother. (The lucky cuss has an original '76.) The 11.5x50 was actually the Bavarian military cartridge, chambered in their 1869 rifles. Boy would I like to find one of those! Werder, the inventor of the rifle, was from Nuremberg. From a geographic perspective, it makes sense. That cartridge has a slight shoulder, however. Guess I will have to be patient and wait for the chamber casting.

ligonierbill,
It is highly unlikely that the Stiegele is chambered for any American caliber, and unlikely that is the Danish round. The most likely caliber would be the 11.5x50 R Werder, as you supposed; or one of the very similar variations of this cartridge. If so the rim recess should be deep enough to accept the 2.40mm rim of the 11.15x60R Mauser( Mauser Base, or MB) case. Mauser Base cases are no longer readily available( read "cheap") here. I have a similar Buechsflinte ( the German name for this type gun) chambered for a similar cartridge that uses a .446"bullet, and a friend has a bolt action single shot, chambered for the Werder cartridge. Both of us make highly satisfactory cases from 45-70. To do this, we move the outside part of the rim forward to approximate the Mauser base rim, reduce the rim diameter to closely fit the rim recess( in my case .595"),then trim as appropriate. Depending on the maker of the 45-70 cases, the new cases will be about .015" undersize. This is acceptable and will expand to fit in fire forming. Fitting the rim to the rim recess centers the case at the rear, and the bullet does so at the front. This ensures an even expansion of the cases. When you receive the chamber cast, let us know the particulars and we can visit the question again. This type rifle commonly has a barrel with an uneven number of grooves, which complicates measuring the groove diameter.
Mike

Closest that I have to a Werder is my Werndl
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s07pL_HFLcg

Mike

The cartridge used in the youtube video looks like the 11.15x58R, Austrian Werndl M77, which was also used in a Mannlicher straight pull rifle. It has a base similar to the Mauser base, but is larger in diameter. I believe 45-70 would not be appropriate( or even 45-90 for the length). It is possible for the Stiegele, but I still lean toward the Werder. BTY, the Werndel was loaded in the US for a while( I have some).
Mike

Mike,
Yes, I was just saying I do NOT have a Werder
I use 348 Win brass as my source for brass
Maybe time to find a Werder???
Mik3

skeetx
Mike, it looks like you are having a lot of fun with the old rifles. My friend's rifle, itself, is not a Werder, but a sporting version of the "small M71". He uses either lighter 45-70 or heavier 45 Colt bullets, sized to .454". You likely already have what you need to keep a Werder caliber( or variant) rifle shooting. Since .348 cases are so hard to find now, I have switched 8x50 Lebel for some rifles, and find them easier to use. You might look at some of the 50 cal. cases Starline now makes, instead of .348.
Mike

I am an excessive compulsive kind of fella and have a GI ammo can of 348 win virgin brass.

Good for my Beaumonts, 43 Spanish (with a lot of sweat and a 12 ton shop press), Werndl, and a host of other odd ones like 45-75 etc.

YES!! The Lebel is a great case for forming

Mike

Skeetx,
Mike,
I know what you mean about the 12 ton shop press, I went through all that learning about making cases for my 11.15x 51R, without cutting my few 43 Mauser cases( reduced 8x50R Lebel and blew it out, added rim to 7mm mag after turning belt off). That exercise showed me the easiest way is to move the rim on 45-70 to approximate the MB. I helped my cousin make 43 Mauser cases the same way, but with 45-90 cases. It dawned on me during all that, that 45-90 cases should work very well for 43 Spanish by simply adjusting the rim to fit the rifle, if required. I haven't tried it yet, because I have a quantity of Original 43 Spanish cases. I should try it, seeing that my Spanish cases are folded head and Berdan primed. BTY 45-90 cases should make fine 44-77 Remington cases, the same way as 43 Spanish. The 348 case is the "school solution" donor case for several cases that are now better served with other donors. When Askins wrote his book, many cases were not available and he selected 348, because it was the best choice at that time( it still is, for some cases).
Mike

Mike
YES!! We speak the same language
I had a Sharps #3 Business Rifle in 44-77, what fun.
It went to a friend in California.
I used .446 bullets in it and .439 in the 43 Spanish that I have.
I made case body swage dies from diesel engine wrist pins, WHEW!!

Mike

Say there skeet....doncha think ya coulda picked sumthin' just a little harder?

AND I would only do 3 cases per day and then let the die rest.
I wanted to swage the heads down to size and NOT use a lathe like some folks.
Mike

Skeetx,
Mike,
I cut a groove, the width of a parting tool, ahead of the rim. This groove was to the diameter minus .010" of the target casehead. This groove was in the solid part of the casehead and prevented closing the primer pocket and flash hole. Having to reopen the flash hole and primer pocket wouldn't be earthshaking, but it would be a troublesome operation.
Mike

Great idea!!

2 years ago I accompanied a friend on a Maine moose hunt, where he took a nice 2 1/2 y/o bull with his cape gun. One 90 yard shot from the 11.5x50R broke its spine, and he finished it off with a 16 ga round ball.
He used a pretty-standard cast bullet in the 11.5, 365 grains IIRC. Made his own cases for the 11.5. I'll check with him to see what he used as the parent case. I think it might have been the Lebel, but I could be wrong on that.

OK friends, I picked up the M�nchner B�chsflinte this afternoon. I should slug the bore myself, as I have some 50 caliber round balls, but here are the measurements from the chamber cast:
Groove 0.471
Case mouth 0.513
Base 0.525
Rim 0.605
No shoulder whatsoever.

These dimensions are a little bigger than the 11.7 mm Danish. A new 45-70 case drops right in, but there is a good deal of radial clearance. The closest thing I can find is 12.3x50R Mauser Straight. Matches the rim for sure.

This gun opens by rotating the forearm clockwise. There is a wedge that holds the forearm in place. The shotgun barrel measures 16 ga. IC.

What do you think?

PS: New lead slug measures 0.470, no real change. Very wide grooves.

ligonierbill,
How deep is rim recess, does it need Mauser base type rim or flat? What is case length?
Mike

Rim recess is about 1.5 mm, flat. Case length is a little difficult to measure from the casting, but it is 50-51 mm measured from the base (not including rim thickness. Seven grooves and lands.

ligonierbill,
I'll look and see what I can find.
Mike

Thanks. The seller is sending me a box of Buffalo Arms 11.7x51R ammo that he apparently received when he bought the gun. He never fired it, but 6 rounds were fired. Doesn't mean it is the correct caliber. Measuring the fired cases will tell me a lot, assuming they were fired from this gun.

ligonierbill,
Great, you have it then.
Mike

Maybe I have it, maybe not. The dimensions are not exact (yes, I compensated for Cerrosafe expansion) and I still wonder why a Bayrische gunmaker would chamber a Danish round. The seller guessed 1892 manufacture date, so could be. I will report when I find out more, but any suggestions are much appreciated.

ligonierbill,
The Danish round was the first one I found but held back for the same concerns you have, especially that it is not a German or Austrian cartridge. It is often difficult to reliably find the nominal cartridge for an old black powder rifle. Everyone was still learning at the beginning of the self contained cartridge era. It seems they left a lot of room for black powder fouling the bullet diameter is almost always smaller than even bore diameter, much less groove diameter( they counted on soft lead bullets "slugging up"). This is compounded by having to compare cartridge dimensions to the chamber dimensions gleaned from chamber casts. Even modern cartridges have to be smaller than the chamber, otherwise they won't enter it. There might be a German cartridge for your rifle, but I haven't found it in Dixon. I often tell people that as long as you can find or make bullets and cases that fit, you can call it what ever you want; you aren't going to ask for the ammo at the "Mall Mart". I guess it is possible the gun was made for a foreign customer.
Mike

I'm not very experienced in ammunition, but all elder Stiegele rifles I can find, are in 11,15x60R!?

Gunwolf

I took the B�chsflinte to the range this morning. Fired 5 of the 11.7x51R Buffalo Arms rounds. These are reformed 348 Win cases loaded with 0.459 395 gr RN over blackpowder. The sights are on, at least at 25 yards, but I didn't really shoot for group. Like the 5 spent cases the seller sent, these changed in only one dimension. Case mouth OD went from 0.483 to 0.488. A 0.458 bullet meant for 45-70 slides into the fired case. So, whatever the specified caliber, I think I can reload using the fired cases, no resize, and maybe a 0.460 bullet hand seated over black and a taper crimp. BA sells a 0.460 400 gr hollow base bullet. It may not be the Danish round, I don't think it is, but I can fire form cases from it. Should do for a deer, don't ya think!

ligonierbill,
It sounds like you have your problem solved. Older 45-70s often take larger than .458" bullets, often up to .462". Your idea to try .460" seems fine; if you are not satisfied you might try a little larger. Sure, it will do for deer.
Mike

Yes and maybe you can neck size the brass with a 45 Colt carbide die or maybe even the seater die??

Yeah, I think that might work. Ordered the bullets (actually 405 gr) and a 45 taper crimp die from Buffalo Arms.

[img]http://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8MzhoaGo2N8bWduYUtCZXc1ajRaWmdFOXJocFdBT2FDYUxZ[/img]

After some time at the smith to fix the sear, I am back working this gun. The image (if I did this right) is of a 0.469 bullet started into the muzzle. A 0.460 bullet essentially drops through, barely touching the lands. The 0.469 taps in easily and comes out with hand pressure on a cleaning rod. I managed to load two .469 rounds using unsized fired cases and a 480 Ruger seating die to crimp the bullet in place over 55 gr by volume of FFg. I haven't fired them yet. What do you think?

I'm curious to see the velocity & the placement / position of the bullet on the target.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Skeettx,
Because of the BPCR shooters, there is a lot of 45-90 brass around now. It is a lot easier to make 43 Spanish from it than from 348.
Mike

Yes, times are a changing
and even 8mm Lebel brass is now available

https://www.grafs.com/catalog/product/productId/76747

Skeettx,
Yes, I use the 8x50 Lebel to make 12.7x44R( I make mine 42mm) and my buddy makes 10.4x38R centerfire from them. Much easier than .348 in both cases.
Mike

Bill's Buchsflinte

I got to the range and fired the two rounds plus a few more of the 11.7x51R Danish. Did not take the chrono. Function is fine, the Danish seem to have a sharper recoil (more powder). Bore sighting, the thing seems way high. I think I have learned the picture posting, so here is one of the gun. Next trip I will get some data.

It's been nearly a year, but I finally got this old piece figured out. I fired the remaining Danish rounds, but no group at all. The only bullet I found that would match the bore was a 0.469 480 gr. round from Buffalo Arms. A bit heavy, I think. So, rather than start casting my own (probably should), I went to paper patched. A 0.459 350 gr. bullet works nicely. I can seat them by hand over 60 grains by volume of Olde Eynsford 1 1/2F and put a little taper crimp on. This setup ran 1,225 average, and hits right on point of aim for the sights. I need to shoot some more, but the grouping looks promising. I still can't name a caliber, but I have a good round.

ligonierbill,
You have the case, bullet, and load worked out; your velocity is "in line" with the expected, and it shoots to point of aim. What you need to do now is just enjoy it. " You done good".
Mike