March
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Who's Online Now
9 members (Hammergun, Dave K, buckstix, Der Ami, 2 invisible), 398 guests, and 2 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics38,374
Posts544,008
Members14,391
Most Online1,131
Jan 21st, 2024
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4
#524258 09/28/18 11:13 AM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 26
Likes: 2
Boxlock
OP Offline
Boxlock

Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 26
Likes: 2
Cape Gun is more of a British term, but this is a sxs 2 barrel affair, 16 ga left and uncertain rifle right. Stiegele-Jagd is still in business in Munich, but the family had to sell out in 1927 due to the "riotous lifestyle" of the 3rd generation, C. Stiegele Junior (from Stiegele-Jagd webpage). It's his name on the firearm. My extended family includes several Bavarian hunters, so I couldn't resist the Munich make. I will include pictures when I have it in hand.

I'm asking for "nominations" for rifle caliber possibilities, given the starting point of a chamber cast by the seller. He measured it as 11.7x51R Danish. The time frame is right, but that is a Danish military round chambered in Remington Rolling Blocks. But neither I nor the seller can find a similarly dimensioned round. It's not too far from 45-70, but it's shorter by a couple mm.

I like working with obsolete rounds and have a fair amount of experience loading blackpowder. So, what's your guess for a straight-walled (maybe some taper), 46 caliber, 2" case?

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,736
Likes: 181
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,736
Likes: 181
Maybe some variant based on the 450 BPE? Possibly the 11.5X50R Werndl / 11.3X51R but the dimensions of the base, neck & rim are needed to narrow the culprit.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,522
Likes: 167
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,522
Likes: 167
45-60 Winchester BUT the Danish really sounds right to me

and folks will fuss, but I use Rem 45-70 brass for my Danish

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/860270...-nose-box-of-20

https://www.buffaloarms.com/11-7x51r-danish-loaded-black-powder-ammunition-box-of-20-amo11751rb

Whatever it is, I would use lead bullets and not jacketed.

Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 26
Likes: 2
Boxlock
OP Offline
Boxlock

Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 26
Likes: 2
Thanks for the inputs. Would that it were a 45-60. I already load that for my brother. (The lucky cuss has an original '76.) The 11.5x50 was actually the Bavarian military cartridge, chambered in their 1869 rifles. Boy would I like to find one of those! Werder, the inventor of the rifle, was from Nuremberg. From a geographic perspective, it makes sense. That cartridge has a slight shoulder, however. Guess I will have to be patient and wait for the chamber casting.

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,445
Likes: 201
Sidelock
**
Online Content
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,445
Likes: 201
ligonierbill,
It is highly unlikely that the Stiegele is chambered for any American caliber, and unlikely that is the Danish round. The most likely caliber would be the 11.5x50 R Werder, as you supposed; or one of the very similar variations of this cartridge. If so the rim recess should be deep enough to accept the 2.40mm rim of the 11.15x60R Mauser( Mauser Base, or MB) case. Mauser Base cases are no longer readily available( read "cheap") here. I have a similar Buechsflinte ( the German name for this type gun) chambered for a similar cartridge that uses a .446"bullet, and a friend has a bolt action single shot, chambered for the Werder cartridge. Both of us make highly satisfactory cases from 45-70. To do this, we move the outside part of the rim forward to approximate the Mauser base rim, reduce the rim diameter to closely fit the rim recess( in my case .595"),then trim as appropriate. Depending on the maker of the 45-70 cases, the new cases will be about .015" undersize. This is acceptable and will expand to fit in fire forming. Fitting the rim to the rim recess centers the case at the rear, and the bullet does so at the front. This ensures an even expansion of the cases. When you receive the chamber cast, let us know the particulars and we can visit the question again. This type rifle commonly has a barrel with an uneven number of grooves, which complicates measuring the groove diameter.
Mike

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,522
Likes: 167
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,522
Likes: 167
Closest that I have to a Werder is my Werndl
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s07pL_HFLcg

Mike

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,445
Likes: 201
Sidelock
**
Online Content
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,445
Likes: 201
The cartridge used in the youtube video looks like the 11.15x58R, Austrian Werndl M77, which was also used in a Mannlicher straight pull rifle. It has a base similar to the Mauser base, but is larger in diameter. I believe 45-70 would not be appropriate( or even 45-90 for the length). It is possible for the Stiegele, but I still lean toward the Werder. BTY, the Werndel was loaded in the US for a while( I have some).
Mike

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,522
Likes: 167
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,522
Likes: 167
Mike,
Yes, I was just saying I do NOT have a Werder
I use 348 Win brass as my source for brass
Maybe time to find a Werder???
Mik3

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,445
Likes: 201
Sidelock
**
Online Content
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,445
Likes: 201
skeetx
Mike, it looks like you are having a lot of fun with the old rifles. My friend's rifle, itself, is not a Werder, but a sporting version of the "small M71". He uses either lighter 45-70 or heavier 45 Colt bullets, sized to .454". You likely already have what you need to keep a Werder caliber( or variant) rifle shooting. Since .348 cases are so hard to find now, I have switched 8x50 Lebel for some rifles, and find them easier to use. You might look at some of the 50 cal. cases Starline now makes, instead of .348.
Mike

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,522
Likes: 167
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,522
Likes: 167
I am an excessive compulsive kind of fella and have a GI ammo can of 348 win virgin brass.

Good for my Beaumonts, 43 Spanish (with a lot of sweat and a 12 ton shop press), Werndl, and a host of other odd ones like 45-75 etc.

YES!! The Lebel is a great case for forming

Mike

Last edited by skeettx; 09/30/18 09:01 PM.

USAF RET 1971-95 [Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2024 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u11+hw1 Page Time: 0.062s Queries: 35 (0.041s) Memory: 0.8504 MB (Peak: 1.8988 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2024-03-28 19:00:24 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS