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Forums10
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Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 26 Likes: 2
Boxlock
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OP
Boxlock
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 26 Likes: 2 |
Cape Gun is more of a British term, but this is a sxs 2 barrel affair, 16 ga left and uncertain rifle right. Stiegele-Jagd is still in business in Munich, but the family had to sell out in 1927 due to the "riotous lifestyle" of the 3rd generation, C. Stiegele Junior (from Stiegele-Jagd webpage). It's his name on the firearm. My extended family includes several Bavarian hunters, so I couldn't resist the Munich make. I will include pictures when I have it in hand.
I'm asking for "nominations" for rifle caliber possibilities, given the starting point of a chamber cast by the seller. He measured it as 11.7x51R Danish. The time frame is right, but that is a Danish military round chambered in Remington Rolling Blocks. But neither I nor the seller can find a similarly dimensioned round. It's not too far from 45-70, but it's shorter by a couple mm.
I like working with obsolete rounds and have a fair amount of experience loading blackpowder. So, what's your guess for a straight-walled (maybe some taper), 46 caliber, 2" case?
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,736 Likes: 181
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,736 Likes: 181 |
Maybe some variant based on the 450 BPE? Possibly the 11.5X50R Werndl / 11.3X51R but the dimensions of the base, neck & rim are needed to narrow the culprit.
Cheers,
Raimey rse
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Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 26 Likes: 2
Boxlock
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OP
Boxlock
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 26 Likes: 2 |
Thanks for the inputs. Would that it were a 45-60. I already load that for my brother. (The lucky cuss has an original '76.) The 11.5x50 was actually the Bavarian military cartridge, chambered in their 1869 rifles. Boy would I like to find one of those! Werder, the inventor of the rifle, was from Nuremberg. From a geographic perspective, it makes sense. That cartridge has a slight shoulder, however. Guess I will have to be patient and wait for the chamber casting.
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,445 Likes: 201
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,445 Likes: 201 |
ligonierbill, It is highly unlikely that the Stiegele is chambered for any American caliber, and unlikely that is the Danish round. The most likely caliber would be the 11.5x50 R Werder, as you supposed; or one of the very similar variations of this cartridge. If so the rim recess should be deep enough to accept the 2.40mm rim of the 11.15x60R Mauser( Mauser Base, or MB) case. Mauser Base cases are no longer readily available( read "cheap") here. I have a similar Buechsflinte ( the German name for this type gun) chambered for a similar cartridge that uses a .446"bullet, and a friend has a bolt action single shot, chambered for the Werder cartridge. Both of us make highly satisfactory cases from 45-70. To do this, we move the outside part of the rim forward to approximate the Mauser base rim, reduce the rim diameter to closely fit the rim recess( in my case .595"),then trim as appropriate. Depending on the maker of the 45-70 cases, the new cases will be about .015" undersize. This is acceptable and will expand to fit in fire forming. Fitting the rim to the rim recess centers the case at the rear, and the bullet does so at the front. This ensures an even expansion of the cases. When you receive the chamber cast, let us know the particulars and we can visit the question again. This type rifle commonly has a barrel with an uneven number of grooves, which complicates measuring the groove diameter. Mike
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,445 Likes: 201
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,445 Likes: 201 |
The cartridge used in the youtube video looks like the 11.15x58R, Austrian Werndl M77, which was also used in a Mannlicher straight pull rifle. It has a base similar to the Mauser base, but is larger in diameter. I believe 45-70 would not be appropriate( or even 45-90 for the length). It is possible for the Stiegele, but I still lean toward the Werder. BTY, the Werndel was loaded in the US for a while( I have some). Mike
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,522 Likes: 167
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,522 Likes: 167 |
Mike, Yes, I was just saying I do NOT have a Werder I use 348 Win brass as my source for brass Maybe time to find a Werder??? Mik3
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,445 Likes: 201
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,445 Likes: 201 |
skeetx Mike, it looks like you are having a lot of fun with the old rifles. My friend's rifle, itself, is not a Werder, but a sporting version of the "small M71". He uses either lighter 45-70 or heavier 45 Colt bullets, sized to .454". You likely already have what you need to keep a Werder caliber( or variant) rifle shooting. Since .348 cases are so hard to find now, I have switched 8x50 Lebel for some rifles, and find them easier to use. You might look at some of the 50 cal. cases Starline now makes, instead of .348. Mike
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,522 Likes: 167
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,522 Likes: 167 |
I am an excessive compulsive kind of fella and have a GI ammo can of 348 win virgin brass.
Good for my Beaumonts, 43 Spanish (with a lot of sweat and a 12 ton shop press), Werndl, and a host of other odd ones like 45-75 etc.
YES!! The Lebel is a great case for forming
Mike
Last edited by skeettx; 09/30/18 09:01 PM.
USAF RET 1971-95
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