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Joined: May 2006
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2006
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This morning, I saw this rifle on gunbroker. The markings on the barrel and the metal work are consistent with G&H, but I've never seen a stock like it on a G&H rifle. I am also curious about the caliber marking .30/25 Since it has been slow on the forum lately, I thought it might be an interesting topic G&H mystery rifle
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Joined: Nov 2014
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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PhysDoc,
25-06? maybe. What about a Hal Hartley restock of a G&H rifle ?
Mike
Last edited by Der Ami; 09/03/18 11:00 AM.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2006
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This is what a Hal Hartley cheek piece looks like:  This is what a Robert Milhoan cheek piece looks like: 
Last edited by xausa; 09/03/18 12:49 PM.
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Joined: Feb 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2002
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re the caliber marking..
Does it say 'M 1' after the .30/25 ?
as in;
.30/25 M 1
I had to enlarge the pic and get rid of the flash in the pic to see it better but that's what I see.
So maybe a way of saying it's the 30-06 M1 service rifle cartridge necked to 25cal.
A 25-06 as DerAmi says.
Wouldn't a reference to the 'M1' (rifle?) make the caliber marking at least as late as 1937 when real production of that rifle began?
Kind of an odd way of marking the caliber if it is in fact a 25-06,,but maybe the customer had thing for the M1.
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Joined: Feb 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Michael writes that 437 should be in the 30-06 range.
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Joined: Jan 2014
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2014
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I own G&H # 435, only two numbers off from this rifle on Gunbroker.
It too is marked 30/25 M1. Mine is a 20" barreled short rifle in 30-06, with a fixed ghost ring rear sight. I bought it cheap because nobody could figure out what it really was.
What my rifle is (was) is an NRA Sporter, with it's original USGI Sporter barrel (the original star gauge marks are still on the underside of the barrel), it still has the rounded front edge on the receiver, but the barrel has had the last 4" cut off (the SA ordnance bomb and dates are gone). The original serial number had been restamped on the bottom of the receiver, and as I recall, it dates from late 1925. At one time, I had quite a long conversation with Paul Chapman of G&H, and was surprised to learn that most of the 30-06 barrels of this era that G&H used were of USGI origin. That makes sense because star gauged barrels, both National Match and Sporter were easily, and relatively cheaply, available from the DCM, and were known to be of a high quality.
In keeping with English double rifles of the period, and because of a fixed rear sight, G&H placed the cartridge load on the barrel. In October 1925, the US Military introduced the 30-06 M1 loading. The original USGI loading of the 30-06 was the M1906, with a 150 grain flat based cupronickle bullet. The M1 load was a 173 grain boattail bullet, and had a much flatter, and longer, trajectory. Because of the flatter trajectory, and the increased danger space, the M1 loading was discontinued, and the M2 loading was introduced in 1940. The M1 boattail bullet was retained for match grade ammunition, essentially becoming the M72 bullet used in both the 30-06 and 7.62 NATO M72 and M118 ammunition of the 1950s, 60s and 70s.
There has been /is much speculation of the 30/25 M1 nomenclature, but I submit that instead of the original load being 30/06 (meaning 30 caliber, model 1906) G&H placed the new loading information , 30 caliber/ 1925 variation, M1 loading to distinguish these rifles. This is only the second rifle I have seen so marked, it will be a 30-06, chambered for the M1 loading. Having a fixed rear sight, my rifle needed that load information on the barrel, as it would have been "regulated" with that load, and any other load might not shoot to the sights. The Gunbroker rifle, with a Lyman 48, really doesn't need the 30/25 M1 notation, but I wonder if # 436 has it too............
Lastly, as to the stock on this rifle, I can't really say what it is, but I can unequivocally say what it isn't! That stock in no way lives up to Griffin and Howe's standards..............
HTH
By the way, and I haven't gone back and looked at the Gunbroker rifle yet, and I don't want to change or loose my entire post, but with a last glance, my rifle is actually marked 30/25 M.1, not 30/25 M1
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 51 Likes: 2
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 51 Likes: 2 |
I went back and looked at the Gunbroker rifle. While I can't see the period in the photo, the spacing of the M1 is actually M 1, identical to mine, so it will probably be 30/25 M.1 if that makes a difference to anybody.
Additional observations:
It has a Service Rifle barrel on it, so this MAY have been a National Match rifle. You can see that from the filling in of the rear sight collar pin.
The original USGI serial number SHOULD be on the bottom of the receiver, if anybody cared to ask.
The front sight hood is incorrect, as is the stock and recoil pad.
The front sight itself is correct, and all the other metalwork appears to be.
As far as the price................................
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 767 Likes: 18
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 767 Likes: 18 |
I have no 423 and it is marked 30 GOVT 06. It has the service barrel with sight spline cut. If I recall correctly, Petrovs s/n sequencing explanation would have these guns in the early-mid 1924 era. The first numbers being non-caliber related, next were specific blocks of numbers according to chambering (like these in the 400 series all being 30-06), then back to sequential regardless of chambering.
Certainly the golden age of American rifles
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,156 Likes: 23
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,156 Likes: 23 |
I own G&H # 435, only two numbers off from this rifle on Gunbroker.
It too is marked 30/25 M1. Mine is a 20" barreled short rifle in 30-06, with a fixed ghost ring rear sight. I bought it cheap because nobody could figure out what it really was.
What my rifle is (was) is an NRA Sporter, with it's original USGI Sporter barrel (the original star gauge marks are still on the underside of the barrel), it still has the rounded front edge on the receiver, but the barrel has had the last 4" cut off (the SA ordnance bomb and dates are gone). The original serial number had been restamped on the bottom of the receiver, and as I recall, it dates from late 1925. At one time, I had quite a long conversation with Paul Chapman of G&H, and was surprised to learn that most of the 30-06 barrels of this era that G&H used were of USGI origin. That makes sense because star gauged barrels, both National Match and Sporter were easily, and relatively cheaply, available from the DCM, and were known to be of a high quality.
In keeping with English double rifles of the period, and because of a fixed rear sight, G&H placed the cartridge load on the barrel. In October 1925, the US Military introduced the 30-06 M1 loading. The original USGI loading of the 30-06 was the M1906, with a 150 grain flat based cupronickle bullet. The M1 load was a 173 grain boattail bullet, and had a much flatter, and longer, trajectory. Because of the flatter trajectory, and the increased danger space, the M1 loading was discontinued, and the M2 loading was introduced in 1940. The M1 boattail bullet was retained for match grade ammunition, essentially becoming the M72 bullet used in both the 30-06 and 7.62 NATO M72 and M118 ammunition of the 1950s, 60s and 70s.
There has been /is much speculation of the 30/25 M1 nomenclature, but I submit that instead of the original load being 30/06 (meaning 30 caliber, model 1906) G&H placed the new loading information , 30 caliber/ 1925 variation, M1 loading to distinguish these rifles. This is only the second rifle I have seen so marked, it will be a 30-06, chambered for the M1 loading. Having a fixed rear sight, my rifle needed that load information on the barrel, as it would have been "regulated" with that load, and any other load might not shoot to the sights. The Gunbroker rifle, with a Lyman 48, really doesn't need the 30/25 M1 notation, but I wonder if # 436 has it too............
Lastly, as to the stock on this rifle, I can't really say what it is, but I can unequivocally say what it isn't! That stock in no way lives up to Griffin and Howe's standards..............
HTH
By the way, and I haven't gone back and looked at the Gunbroker rifle yet, and I don't want to change or loose my entire post, but with a last glance, my rifle is actually marked 30/25 M.1, not 30/25 M1 wow, thanks for the great explanation. I wonder how many rifles were made with these markings.
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