doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Dave Carrie's new video on patterning a 410

Watched Dave Carrie's latest video on YOU TUBE on patterning a 419 using 2 1/2 and 3" shells.
Anybody else see it and have comments on killing range on a 410?

I have not seen the video, but in testing my own guns the 3 inch .410 shells pattern poorly with a very long shot string. The 2 1/2 were much better! Can you send a link for the video?

That video give you very little real information. Why pick such long ranges? What is the quality of ammo tested? Why only one shot per test? What chokes are tested? A skeet choke at 40 yards is not a reasonable test of anything. What velocity ? If you want to test a .410 set up reasonable things to test.

I�ve spent a lot of time testing .410�s. Everything matters when shooting a .410. Choke, velocity, quality of shot, wad and hull. Type of primer. Depth of crimp on shells. Just to pick a factory shell and shoot one at a pattern board is a complete waste of time with a .410. Range is a major concern. I test at 20,25,30 and 33 yards. Past 33 yards no .410 load I�ve tested looks using. None.

My current go to .410 is a model 42 with .022 choke. My best shells for hunting and most sporting clay are two different shells. For Sporting clays I shoot 1/2 ounce 8�s with a velocity of 1345 average FPS on my chrono. That�s what AAHS ammo gives me. For dove hunting I go with 7 1/2 mag. Hard shot, AAHS once fired empties, 300mp powder, AAHS factory wads, not the cheaper replacements, Winchester 209 primers and a velocity that runs 1305 FPS on my chrono. If velocity goes much past this my pattern spreads too much at long ranges and below 1250 I get too much center density. So 1300-1325 seems to be a sweet spot with my gun.

I also tested 3� ammo but have not found one load which gives me a major advantage over the 2 1/2� load I have. If I find one, and I fully expect to at some point I�ll add that to my shell bag. I already have a load which is fully capable of working well at 30 yards, 33+ on a good day. If a 3� shell ends up working as well or better then I�ll gladly shoot them as well.

I agree with your obsevations on the testing that was done. I had some of the same thoughts. I appreciate the testing and work that went into the video but when I heard 55 yards I had to go back to see if I heard that right. I didnt need to see the video to know the results would not be good.
Most of the shooting I have done with my 410�s has been on incoming short range shooting on doves, close range shooting over my dogs on quail both pen raised and wild pointed birds.
I shoot both 2 1/2� and 3� shells. Not a real measurable test but I shoot generally under 20 yards and do well.

The most obvious flaw in Carrie's dissertation is the implication that the pellets from the .410 have less energy than those of the same size from the 12. What a crock of bull! If the pellet is the same size and the velocity is the same the penetration or the energy delivered will be the same, regardless of the size bore it was fired from. It is beyond the pale that someone of his stature in the shotgunning community would assert such a thing.

When I hear such an assertion I have a hard time accepting anything else he says, and quite frankly have to wonder whether or not he has an "agenda".

SRH

He's one of the best long range shotgunners in the world.
55 yards is where he might pick up his gun.

It's not my thing, but it is HIS thing.

The only agenda might be that any crippling in the UK is frowned upon. So he wants some minimum # of penetrating hits at whatever range.
I didn't watch the video. (slow internet at 55 degrees north) Was he shooting at old CD's by his truck shed?
Live from Brora, Scotland.

To be totally fair I watched it again this morning, and I may have overstated when I said that he implied less penetration per pellet with the .410. That was not explicitly stated, and in my defense of the .410 on small game birds I may have put words in his mouth in my previous statement. Others can decide when they watch it.

What is more than obvious tho', is the unfair comparison between a "Spanish, or French" loaded .410 load which probably contained soft, cheap shot with no shotcup (notice where the basewad had pellets embedded in it and penetrated the cardboard at 40 yards. This is an indication of a cheap load) with a Black Gold Gamebore 12 ga. load of impeccable quality, which has hard shot and a full shotcup with petals (you can clearly see the shotcup on the video). He states at the end that this was only a layman's test, but in order to maintain any credibility he should have at least used a high quality load for the .410, if he was going to do so with the 12. To not do so could be construed as having an agenda against the .410.

Nobody in their right mind shoots game with a .410 at 55 yards, so that was really pointless, IMO. But, the pattern he showed from the .410 at 30 yards was not very good, and a clear indication of an inferior load. If he were to do this again he should state the chokes in each gun, and use high quality .410 loads, like the WW 3/4 oz. load that I shot this pattern with, with only .008" choke.



When you put out a video that is watched around the world, and begin by stating the inefficiency of the 1/2 oz. load on grouse, and state that it should never be a beginner's gun, you forget about the thousands of dove shooters for whom a .410 is entirely capable, even in the hands of a youngster. I'll agree the 28 may be better, but my 8 yr. old grandson killed 7 doves, on the wing, with a .410 on the first dove shoot I ever allowed him to shoot on, and he's no phenomenon, he was just coached carefully.

SRH

Oh how wrong you are there is a cult of people that claim to have shot wild turkeys with a foe ten at extreme ranges with mAgic fAiry dust sized shot...they like to call it TSS #9s shot.

It's made from pure tunsten mined in a foriegn country no doubt it's got to be radioactive because it has e'flicted these peoples brainz.

They'll be one along heA in a minute to set us straight.

Dave politely replies to all of his YouTube commenter�s.
His take might be interesting.
As I am traveling in a gun control country, with small retail volumes, He may not have access to premium 410 loads. FWIW Can�t really say.

I think he was using a Yildiz over and under. I do not have experience with these guns but I think the barrels would play some into the results as the ammo you use. He admitted he was using ammo he was not sure of the origin of. The quality of the shot and powder would make for odd results.

I agree with CZ. Dave is addressing this from a driven shooting and he is well know for his kills at extreme ranges.
As I have mentioned in the past, last year there was an article in Fieldsports Magazine where a guy wanted a 28 bore set up for extreme pheasants. He purchased a Perazzi and had the chokes tuned to kill birds at 60 yards. In the article it seems it turned out successful.
I have read articles in the UK Sporting magazines where they have clubs that shoot partridges one day a season with 410's.

I think he was using a Yildiz over and under. I do not have experience with these guns but I think the barrels would play some into the results as the ammo you use. He admitted he was using ammo he was not sure of the origin of. The quality of the shot and powder would make for odd results.

My Yildiz .410 S x S is perfectly regulated and shoots beautiful patterns. I have killed many limits of doves with it, with 1/2 oz. and 11/16 oz. loads. The days of being safe dissing guns without trying them, that are sold cheaply, have passed away. I can show Yildiz patterns if interested, but won't go to the trouble if no one is.

I think the biggest problem with what Carrie showed is the quality of the shell used and the question of choke.

SRH

Stan, is that a factory 3/4 load or one of your reloads? I would like to have the recipe if it is a reload. Wonderful pattern on the Pattern on the pattern board!

If you want to shoot .410 in the field you must put in the time and effort to find out what works for you and your gun. Cheap shells, soft shot, poor choke selection will make a .410 a very frustrating choice which will result in too many misses or lightly hit birds. Everyone needs to get better at range estimation. Those who shoot Sporting Clays have already started reading target flight paths better than most. Just to think you can pickup a .410 and shoot it well you better have tons of God given talent because without pratice you will fail.

I shoot .410 at Sporting Clays, 16 yard trap and Skeet. Some think I�m shooting a 28 or 20 because when I do my part it smokes birds. It�s practice, fine tuning gun, ammo and shooter. When I reload .410 I will load 1,000 to 1,500 in a sitting. Practice with good stuff makes all the difference to me.

He sent me a message as he was using 3/4 choke

That picture is a pattern made with the WW factory 3/4 oz. load, and my 30" barreled I. Rizzini Verona. I am working on a 3/4 oz. handload of my own in a 3" Cheddite hull and having 3/4 oz. of true nickel plated 8s. I'll start a thread on it after having patterned it.

SRH

Range of your .410 pattern? Choke for your gun you are testing.

Years ago, when I was shooting a lot of Skeet with a .410 to cure a flinch, I had a set of tubes made by Briley. In them I had choke tubes made with .002 increasing amounts of chokes from true cylinder up to .026 constriction. Nothing much above .020 pattern well with what loads I was reloading at the time or factory shells for that matter. With factory Remington shells .012 and .016 was real good for doubles. Anything from .008 to .016 worked well for Skeet. For 16 yard trap I found .016 to .020 worked well but saw no advantage much above .020. With 300MP I bet that my results would be even better. Back then we had 2400, 296/H110 and IMR4227 as our basic powders.

Are true nickel plated 8's that much harder than high quality magnum shot? And do they weigh less? Does it take more room to get a full 3/4 ounce in shell? You are starting a very interesting project I think.

I spoke to Dave and he chuckled, he thought the video would cause comment . It is his yard and only him and the cameraman present. The cartridges were Hull a rival company to his sponsor Gamebore ! Yet more to come.

Keep in mind that choke is not so much a matter of thousandths of an inch of constriction as it is a matter of percentage of bore reduction.
.020" in a .410 bore gives the same % of reduction as .035" in a 12 gauge. With more constriction than this is a .410 you were likely encountering an "Overchoke" condition.

My apologies, I didn't originally see your comment and question, but read back over the thread and realized I had not answered you.

I do think they are harder, and have more "lubricity" when passing through f.cones and chokes, but cannot quantify it. They must weigh less. They seem to take up more space to get the same payload weight in the same shell/wad/powder charge combination. I am beginning with unfired Cheddite 3" cases, and roll crimping them. I cannot actually get a full 3/4 oz. in it, but it's just a few pellets short.......... not much. If it shows promise on the plate I may look for a powder charge that takes up less space than the H110, but I doubt I will find one. I'm trying to keep the m.v. down between 1100 and 1150 fps.

I think I will go out to the shop this afternoon and count out 100 pellets of each, nickel plated and unplated, and weigh them. I'll report on my findings.

SRH

Stan, you should have given this task to Ed Good.

He would have got stuck on 10 after he ran out of fingers, and we'd never hear from him again.

I went the long route. I counted three whole 3/4 oz. loads. Here's the scoop.

There are 310 nickel plated 8s in 3/4 oz. (328.2 gr., weighed). They mic .089". Do the math and this is 1.059 gr. per pellet. I'm getting an average of about 300-302 pellets in this new load.

There are 286 hard 8s in 3/4 oz. (328.4 gr., weighed). they weigh 1.148 gr. per pellet.

The nickel plated shot are definitely harder. Using the pliers test, with a tiny pliers, I could easily tell the difference.

Just a bit more info on the WW Super X 3/4 oz. load of 8 1/2s. It's a few pellets shy of a full 3/4 oz., at 323 gr., and there are 378 of the 8 1/2s in a load. This is the load I will be using exactly 7 days from now. We know how wonderful it patterns, and 8 1/2 shot should be good on a dove out to 30 plus yds.

Dave Carrie made the comment that you could shoot him in the butt with a 1/2 oz. load of 6s from a .410 and it might sting a little. Ha! If he only knew what it feels like to be hit with #8s at 40 yards he wouldn't have said that. 6s would be infinitely worse. I've been shot twice at close enough range to be bloodied, with 8s. Had to pick shot out of myself once. He doesn't have a clue.

SRH

Years back took some 3"-ers apart. The RP's #7.5 pellets ranged from .093 to .0975, avg = #7.5s. Crude hardness test (OK, pliers) comparing with known (had it sent out) 4.5% antimony #8s suggests these #7.5s were harder.

Shot charge = 309 gr, about .706 oz (11/16 oz = .6875 oz = 301 gr).

Regarding #6 RPs, got an avg of 87 beautifully distributed #6 pellets within a 20" circle at 40 yds through a 0.016" M-42. That worked out to 56% in 20", and with 1250 fps MV. A phez could not make it through that 20" circle alive. Dave Carrie wouldn't like them well-centered on his butt.

Full choke .410, 30 yards:



A pheasant or grouse would not have escaped.

Generic 3� load that was on sale for 9.99 at Wal Mart:



The Wife and Son were introduced to the pattern board with a lowly Mossberg 500 .410 pump. The wife, as it turns out, is a bloodthirsty little thing, expending 16 rounds out of the little gun, in cold blood, at the paper. Best $270 I�ve spent in a while. They will be stepped up to the 20 gauge after firearms safety is over, and, hopefully, it cools down a bit. My Son shot it twice, and cheered on his mother after that.

I�ll likely hunt the little guy a time or two, but, don�t see it replacing the 20s, 16 or 12s anytime soon.

It is a hoot to play with. Expensive, to feed, however. I saved the empty�s.

Casual observation, no gun calls out for tubes greater than the .410.
Best,
Ted

Good observations about it not replacing the larger bores. No need for it to. They should not be in competition with one another, like I so often hear implied. The .410 has a niche, in which it does just as well as any other gauge/bore. Many want to try to make it into a long range gun, which it can never be. Long range for a .410 with lead shot is + or - 35 yards.

Comparing it to a 12 bore at 55 yards is like comparing a bow to a rifle at 200. Both are deadly inside their "sphere of influence", not so much outside it.

SRH

It's niche was with women and chill'ern...

That's what I thought too jOe. But then I broke down on a dare and started shooting released quail with my Ithaca Lefever nitro special .410. I was surprised as how much fun and how effective it was...Geo

If patterns had equal distribution the the range of various loads would be in proportion to the Sq Root of the loads. Thus if you double the shot load you do not get twice the range but about a 41% increase. This would mean that a 1 oz load would do at about 42 yards what � oz would do at 30 yards.

In practice however, generally speaking the .410 will put that � oz of shot in a pattern having more core thickening than the 1 oz from a larger bore so the range is extended to some extent but requires a more accurate hold.

Each person needs to truly evaluate their own personal abilities as to whether it is the gun for them. I admire the ability of one who has reached a plateau where they can truly use the small bores to their full usefulness.
I also admire those who realize their limitations & do everything within their power to ensure as clean kills as possible, even if it means carrying a 12 gauge with more open choke.

I Personally have not reached that plateau to where I "Need" a handicap, so I do not hunt with a .410.

Although I have not seen him shoot I do perceive that Stan has reached that plateau as have some others here. Everyone though needs to evaluate their own personal abilities & if you have not reached this level use more gun & don't apologize for it. Perhaps with time & practice you will reach that level, but some of us never will but that doesn't mean we should not enjoy what works well for us..

2-piper you are quite right. Shoot what you want. Shoot it well and enjoy. The size of a mans gun does not increase the size of a man. But early season Dove are very straight forwards most times. A good shooter can take 15 birds with 20 or fewer shells if he uses just a bit of restraint. Most get too excited and shoot too soon or at birds out of their high percentage range. They think I need to shoot now instead of letting marginal birds past to get better shots later. Close, incomes with a open choked 12 bore are near a certain thing.

Now birds a few days later can be much more educated. Diving at any motion or gunfire nearby. One of the most fun ten minutes I had last year was trying to kill my last four birds on a limit while a thunderstorm hit. Winds were 30-40 with gust and birds were everywhere. Their flight path was ever changing with wind gust and those with a tail wind were almost impossible to shoot in front of. It took 17 shells to get four birds and the misses were by a mile not a inch.

National average is almost 7 shells per bird killed. Sales heaviest favor 12s but I don�t see most small bore shooters using more shells per bird. I expect if they did they�d go back to their 12s. People don�t like to miss a lot in front of other hunters or friends.

I favor late season birds. Fully feathered, big adult birds, with a good tail wind behind them and with weeks of being hunted behind them. For those, I leave the .410 home and take a long barreled Sterlingworth 12 bore. Few shots inside 30 yards but many fast moving, challenging birds at distance. Any bird taken is a fine bird as they are much more difficult to harvest. My shell rate starts to climb towards the average and I�m not too proud to admit it.

You have just stated my sentiments perfectly. Well said.

SRH

Time I did that I told them next time I come I'm bringing me a long handled tennis racket to swat them pen razed quails with.

Only game in town these days, jOe...Geo

jOe ain't never seen how "quailbirds" that are raised with no contact with humans, in flight pens, trained to fear hawks, and released in August, fly by the time cold weather comes, either. If he had he would know better than to think they all have to be kicked off the ground.

I shot quail last year in October that were all but indistinguishable from wild birds, and had been released in August. The owner and I bumped into a big covey late in the day that we think may have been true wild birds, or some of last year's releases, or birds that were raised from hatches by a previous year's released birds. But, the coveys we had been in all afternoon flushed so wild that we didn't even get within good gun range of them sometimes before they got up, just from the sound of us walking up towards the pointers in the dry grass and leaves.

I grew up hunting wild birds. I know what it was like. I have also seen what it is like to have to kick up birds. Those are not the only two kinds of quail.

SRH

Keep convincing yourself it'll become easier the older you get.

Your universe is not the world. You admitted you've shot released birds once, but you know all about them. Yeah, right.

SRH

Not much I can add to this thread. But I was working on a 410 this week and I can tell you it puckered me a bit. I had the barrels supported on each end with soft wood blocks in a pressbrake and was pushing down on them in the middle enough to curve them an amazing amount just to bend them about .010" on this lil' Italian sxs that I have more pesos in than I'd like to admit.Lots of spring-back in those barrels. I was taking out a slight upward bend they had which caused me to shoot this gun consistently high. If I've learned anything from shooting 410, it's the gun fit is critical, moreso than a 12g.

Hope you are all enjoying the 410 debate and the films we produce.
here is one of our films that you might enjoy
regards from the UK

Dave Carrie [video:youtube]https://youtu.be/UJf7Mb7lKj4[/video]

Good to hear the barrel bending went well, Chuck. If you have the chance, and the inclination, I know several of us would appreciate your posting details, and pics if available. Maybe over on the DIY Gunsmithing forum here.

Very good film, miroku. I really enjoyed that one.

Thanks, SRH

Stan,
Unfortunately, I didn't get any pictures of the bending/straightnening. I was pretty sucked up and didn't think of pictures. But I'm sure a pic of the barrels in their full curve on the pressbrake would get some comments. It was a hot day in my friend's shop and one of the toolmakers was running the 8ft hydraulic pressbrake while I held the setup. Sweat was running down my face as we had to sneak up on the amount of bend using the pre-set limit on the machine, so as to not overbend. We repeated the bend maybe 30-40 times, checking with a straightedge after each bend. The gun is that little tiny framed Ferlib with rose and scroll, 28" barrels, 5 1/2 lbs, straight stock, DT. I like the gun a lot, but have always shot high with it. Looking at the stock fit, I didn't think I could see over the breach if I lowered the comb or bent the stock down. So, I checked the barrel straightness. It had maybe .010" of up sway. Not really detectable looking alongside with the eye, but with a straightedge, it was visible. The goal was to take that out. Shooting at the pattern plate and clays should tell if I did what was needed.

Years ago Trap shooter often bent their barrels to change POI. Watched one fellow do it at the club and go test it. Back for a little more adjustment and test again. Not very scientific but he shot it well.

I had a A5 which I lent to a fellow who fell while carrying it and he bent the barrel. I re-bent it back by slamming it across a bag of shot several times. It went back almost perfectly. It took several attempt get it right but when finished it was as good as new. I lent it to him again without worry. He had been wounded in Viet Nam and his balance was always iffy. A booby trap exploded right next to his radioman, killing the radioman and shearing most of the top of his head off. Miracle that he lived at all. If he ask for it, and I had it, I gave it to him with not hesitation or questions asked. He was a good man and one who had a short and difficult life like a lot of others who severed.

It seems you can teach an old dog new tricks. After his previous video which pretty much bashed the use of a .410 for any game birds he now has had a change of heart. Excellent video by Carrie on using the little gun for driven partridges, forwarded to me by our resident woodcock whisperer, Gil.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrqqIMtptQs

SRH

Hi Ted- hope you are making progress with your vision, and next Fall (or sooner) will find you A-OK- and the MN grouse will hear from you in season-

You mention that no gauge calls for choke tubes like the .410- I tend to agree,even though I have never owned a .410, and at my age, would most likely not buy one- But somehow in my misc gun parts inventory, I- have a Mint condition Lyman Cutts Full choke tube for the .410 gauge. 100& blue, threads 100%- I went to Corson's website, see that he had one for $100.00

I am going to post my FS on the proper sector here- just FYI.
and I have enjoyed watching the Dave Currie shooting videos here, even the ones with the driven pheasants and the .410 O/U guns.

Do you know what make and model 12 bore O/U Dave shoots? Looks like a Browning, lots of engraving, 32" barrels is my guess. I really enjoy the George Digweed videos, just a barrel chested farm lad with a Perrazi O/U-- I can't believe the ranges at which he dumps pigeons and crows-- Wow.

When I took my M12 in 28" gauge (payment on a debt) my friend also had 2 of them with factory installed Cutts compensators. I accepted the 1939 field grade, 26" solid ribbed, WS-2 chokes, 2&7/8" chambers- at that time, he felt that the other 2 were worth way more, as the Cutts were factory installed, and he had the order card copies to verify this, supposedly. Today, Cabela's Gun Library will not buy ANY shotgun with a Cutts, Poly-Choke or other less well known muzzle device. RWTF

Fox,
I have but one .410, the boy outgrew the gun in perhaps a month, and is thrilled to be up to a 20 gauge. My wife will go to the range and play with us in a very narrow spectrum of conditions-perfect weather, weekend, her house is cleaned, and the laundry mountain is down to a reasonable, for her, level.
Her damn priorities are different than ours. So, it is just the boy and I, usually.
My problem with the .410 is not what it is, per say, but what it isn�t. If we could get Chuck, Stan, Ky Jon, and all these guys who are really good with their .410s into a room and get enough bourbon into them for the truth to come out about how much money they had in figuring the science of the .410 out, it would be sobering for the guys feeding them the bourbon.
The curve is steep with the .410, and the price of admission is always higher, for anything involved with it. I�m at a point where it isn�t the money, well, not always, anyway, but, the time, to chase the .410 fairy, as it were, instead of just unleashing the 16 or 12 gauge tiger, to do its task, cheaper, and more effectively.
Yes, I could put chokes in my cheap little .410 pump. Then, burn daylight, ammunition, time, and money to find out that at around 25 yards, you need to start thinking twice about whether to take that shot at a wild bird ducking into the conifers at the end of his runway.
Or, just bring the 12, and call it good. I�m not real good at pondering things in the midst of a Ruffed Grouse flush. I don�t bring a bunch of guns to hunt with, either. Usually, just one.
If you got time and money to figure that stuff out, more power to you. I�ve got a full time job, a 12 year old, other bad habit hobbies, and not as much time to hunt as I�d like.
Our .410 is mostly a fun toy for the range.

Best,
Ted

Just rest comfortably in the fact that no one is going to put a .410 to your head and force you to use the same, Ted.
JR

We�ll see. The feds and the state have far too much to say about what I shoot out of my guns, now.
If they wanted Joe six pack out of the game, and into a bowling alley, forcing him to use a .410 would be a great start.

Best,
Ted

.410s are for children....and old men trying to relive their childhoods.

Just saying....

.410's and 28 gauges are mostly for the relief of boredom or fatigue from "bigger" guns, or for the snob's ego trip brag. I have no problem with the boredom/fatigue, but detest the braggart.

Stan is one of the rare exceptions: he has a love affair with his .410's and derives great enjoyment from them. I enjoy seeing and hearing about this exploits with the 67.
JR

Ever saw the show Baggage with Jerry Springer ?

Had a 30 year old guy on there with his baby blanket.

Just saying....

M-42s are all the justification I need. Otherwise doubt I'd mess with .410s. Never had a .410 during childhood. Must be an oddball - reliving late middle age.

During October a 42 obliges me to pass less than 10% of otherwise makeable WC shots, but almost half the grouse opportunities. Decades ago limiting mattered, no more.

As for the "work" of dissecting .410 shells, analyzing patterns, and playing with chokes - that's just extra fun for a shameless nerd. As for the "money" invested, never once thought to break it down by gauge. Cuz I dig "figuring the science" of 28s, 20s, 16s, and 12s, too.

No bourbon, tho...I hate being up all night with reflux.

Is that what you think of me, Frank? A man with a baby blanket fetish .........really? Just say so. It might save me some time down the road. Just sayin'......

SRH

My reply about the blanket fetish was to John Roberts.

It's beyond me why anyone would want to shoot a .410...the 20ga. is so much more gun.

Just saying.

Which old men, then?

SRH

Closest I had to a fOe tin when I was a kid was 20ga.

From reading I'm not sure if you're reliving your childhood or you do it to brag about shooting doves with one...

You seemed to have it all figured out in the earlier posts, but once you do get it figured out, let us all know. I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say we are waiting with bated breath.

SRH

If Stan can kill 15 dove with less than a box of shells, and he consistently does, why should he pound himself with a 20, 16 or 12??? If I could, I would. As for reliving his childhood, I doubt if he could do it then. Some folks would find fault with a perfect sunrise.
Just saying....Gil

Cuz John might have it figured out....

Enjoyed that post, Ted.

I went to the range today and took the 30" barreled FAIR Iside .410 S x S, with the intention of doing a little quail shooting practice. I decided to go to station 7 on the skeet range and shoot a few low house birds, reasoning that it was about as close to quail flushing as I could find there. I really wanted to see if the "CYL" tube, which is really a "negative" by measurement (-.006") would hit clays hard enough to be useful in the first barrel for a covey rise. I was using 1/2 oz. of 8s, knowing that it was a much less effective game load than my usual WW 3/4 oz. loads .........kinda stacking the deck against myself intentionally.

I was shooting low gun, to replicate a covey rise, and broke the first one about halfway between the two stakes. Maybe someone who shoots more skeet than me knows what that range would be. I then pushed myself to see how quickly I could kill it, from low gun. I was hitting it very hard at the closest stake, which is plenty quick enough for quail. Again, I don't know that distance, either. So, now I know that I can easily kill quail on the covey rise with that gun, with the "CYL" tube and my 3/4 oz. loads.

I already know that with the MOD tube (.012") at 30 yds. I can kill doves graveyard dead. Now, I know the "CYL" tube is useful for close shots. Point is, testing before carrying a gun in the field is prudent, and confidence building.

SRH

My first dove was killed with a .410 J C Higgins S x S, at age 8. I ground swatted him!

SRH

Good post, Stan-- I'm not gonna, at age 77, take up skeet again (or even SC events) let alone buy a used .410-- But I did break a few 25's at the Quantico Trap and Skeet range back in the 1960's-I was an E-6, and the NCOIC of the armory, checking in and out the shotguns to base personnel- so as a "bonus" I got to shoot a few free rounds- "function testing" the shotguns- mostly M12's and Rem M11's with Cutts comps- (we used the filter tops broken off from cigarettes for"earplugs".

But I am wondering, how do you view the station 8- I believe the late Nash Buckingham considered that a form of "trick shot"he said something akin to this: "Any quail shot at that close range would be pulped, and wasted for the table."

Today, as you may have surmised, my favorite "practice target awing is/are feral pigeons. I've been watching the Dave Carrie shooting videos- on U-tube--If I had my wish- I'd like to try their field decoying shoots for wood pigeons, jackdalls, and crows- with George Digweed as my "coach""

Wonder if he'd let me shoot my "pet" M12 12 ga. I probably couldn't afford a Perrazi, as he shoots. Foxey