March
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Who's Online Now
4 members (Gankai, Pat Gidley, Gerry Addison, Jtplumb), 791 guests, and 2 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics38,374
Posts544,012
Members14,391
Most Online1,131
Jan 21st, 2024
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#521036 08/19/18 01:10 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,693
Likes: 450
KY Jon Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,693
Likes: 450
I have had several members here and friends off the board contact me about a gun that is selling at auction. Two of them are very interested in the gun, I am not. The auction is described as a "high end firearm in outstanding condition". From that most would infer that it is original condition or a well restored example. It is a clear upgrade. The gun itself is a very attractive gun and bought as a upgrade, at an upgrade price, should be a fine gun to own and shoot. It has zero collectors value.

When you are looking at auctions online and can not examine the gun in person, you need to pay attention to what is not said in the description and what the photos show you when you are looking at them. The buyer is given more than enough information to not make the mistake to buy a gun, thinking it is a very rare and valuable gun. The seller does not say it is a rare and valuable gun. Just high end and high condition. We all want to think we just found that rare, one in a million pearl. One photo alone tells you it is not original and not rare. It is a field grade gun upgraded to a high grade gun. Fairly common thing in some guns. It is a very good looking, upgraded gun, which someone, for some reason decided to choose one of the rarest grades to make it into. And the upgrade most likely was done recently.



Here is the proof it is a later upgrade. The gun by serial number was made in the late 1940's. Simmons Gun Specialties, Inc., moved from 504 East 18th St. (Locust), K.C., Mo. to Olathe, KS in 1965. Now they go by Simmons Gun Repair Inc. Olathe, KS. This "high grade" gun had zero chance of leaving the factory with this rib on it. It would have been a custom shop only made gun, and you could request anything you wanted on it, but nobody could predict the future by 20 plus years.

So what is the difference? If real, in this condition, it should bring 20K or more. As a upgrade, it should bring what the market sells it for, which looks to be near $3500 maybe a little more. Anything way over that is just two buyers fighting to own it. The winner best not take it to a "Expert Collector" for an appraisal as a rare gun. He will be very disappointed I am afraid.

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,522
Likes: 167
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,522
Likes: 167
Soooo, is this a modified semi-auto J.C. Higgins gun?

Last edited by skeettx; 08/19/18 02:14 PM.

USAF RET 1971-95 [Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,558
Likes: 22
tut Offline
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,558
Likes: 22
Model 42 Pigeon


foxes rule
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,693
Likes: 450
KY Jon Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,693
Likes: 450
Anyone buying a high grade 12 or 42 better know that it seems for every real one, there are five upgrades and ten refinished ones. If they are not the most faked, upgraded gun or car there is, I hate to think what else it could be. Maybe early Mustangs, T-Birds or Chevys.

Worse every "gunsmith" thinks they can refinish one, just like the factory and no one will ever know the difference. They even go as far as to have a proof die made so they can put the right Winchester proof mark, in the right place, when they upgrade a plain barreled gun to a ribbed gun. The number of 28 gauge which started out as another gauge is scary. And sellers all seem to know just enough to sell the guns but not know what they have or how to answer real questions. So the "smart" ones list the gun with very vague information, post photos that hide as much as they show and the dumb one just lie outright.

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,431
Likes: 34
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,431
Likes: 34
Well, yes, but this one has a bunch of very good pics, doesn't seem to be hiding much. Ignore the hyperbole and look at the gun. Pretty nice shooter.

I have an M12 conversion 28 and it's obvious to those who know what to look for that it's a conversion. Still, a pretty nice shooter.

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,091
Likes: 192
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,091
Likes: 192
Let's see the entire ad. Simmons marked guns, Model 12 and 42 Winchester in the 1964 era were largely "Simmons marketed" guns supplied by Winchester to install ribs and target grade wood and are interesting to collectors of Winchester skeet guns. They are nowhere near as valuable as original vent rib Winchesters, but sell for way more than field grade guns if in high condition.

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,693
Likes: 450
KY Jon Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,693
Likes: 450
Eightbore. That rib was a post 65 rib put on a 1949 gun. It was redone as a pigeon grade gun. I suspect very recently as well. Stock was wrong. Obvious upgrade. One of too many 12 or 42 upgrades out there.

I know at one time Simmons got in pump guns by the pallet from Winchester, and installed ribs on them, then sent them out to gun shops and wholesalers. But a Pigeon grade gun would have been a custom shop gun, made to order not anything Simmons would have done. Now Winchester claims they never sent guns out to Simmons for ribs which would have Simmons on the side of the rib. Not certain thats correct but might be. But before 1965 it would be KC on the side not Olathe KS. Easy tell as they say. Like the solid rib 12 I was looking at with the edge of the factory proof showing under the solid on top rib where plain barrels were marked and sporting a second factory proof mark where a factory rib proof make should be.

To be fair the seller listed it as a high condition pigeon grade gun but never claimed outright it was an original gun. Just high grade and very nice. And as a shooter it was a nice looking gun. But I get so tired of refinished or upgraded guns trying to be passed off as rare and original. Im sure you are as well. And the difference in what this gun would be worth if real was many times its selling price.

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 348
Likes: 21
Sidelock
*
Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 348
Likes: 21
Open thanks to every member that make positive comments when requested.Lot of smart collectors on this board.

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,456
Likes: 86
Sidelock
*
Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,456
Likes: 86
Originally Posted By: KY Jon
I have had several members here and friends off the board contact me about a gun that is selling at auction. Two of them are very interested in the gun, I am not.


I'm curious why anyone would ask you...you've repeatedly proven you can't see the forest for the trees.

This thread is more evidence KY....

KY your life would be more productive if you weren't on the internet educating folks about your great gun knowledge.

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,693
Likes: 450
KY Jon Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,693
Likes: 450
Hey Joe next time you see a post with my name in it dont bother clicking. Your input is as useless as tits on a boar, which you are fast becoming. Go away. Go take your meds and tell your Dr the generics are not working for you. Bye.

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2024 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u11+hw1 Page Time: 0.060s Queries: 35 (0.039s) Memory: 0.8493 MB (Peak: 1.8988 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2024-03-29 01:53:11 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS