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Originally Posted By: 12boreman
Again, can anyone show me a powder that can load 28 thru 8 gauge consistently? Please show me one.


You can load every gauge from 28 up to 10 with Green Dot. There, that is one. It is not the best in all those gauges. But it does meter better than 800X. I once knew a shooter who had worked up .410 loads using Red Dot. They worked, but I would never call them a good idea, or the best option. If you like 800X for everything, then good for you. I'll keep using different powders to get the best performance I can instead of using a "universal" powder and settling for what ever performance it can give me in a given load.

As to PB. I started rounding up extra, a couple years ago for my low pressure loading needs. I've got about 40 pounds so far. I even know where another 8 pound keg is sitting on a store shelf waiting to be bought. Intend to buy it next week if I get a chance. So even powders which are long discontinued are still out there if you look and get lucky. I just wish I could find some $10.00/thousand 209 primers, or $11.00 a bag shot.

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Originally Posted By: Shotgunjones
Is the elaborate test referenced by Garwood corroborated by any other source?

'The Field' magazine perhaps? Anyone?

It's a very vague report notably lacking in particulars.

Far as I'm concerned without verifiable references it didn't happen.



Jones, perhaps you ought to pose that question to this forum's own "Crossed Chisels" (David Trevallion). In their book "Shotgun Technicana", Trevallion and the late Michael McIntosh start out with "Acknowledgments"--which includes a photo of Mr. G.T. Garwood (Gough Thomas). They give him special mention. Why don't you ask Mr. Trevallion if he thinks Thomas knew what he was talking about? And perhaps, if you don't care to take that risk, you can produce evidence--from a scientifically conducted test--that slow burning powders produce less recoil than fast-burning powders. And remember, as I pointed out above, that you're starting in the hole--since the formula for computing recoil tells us that the more powder you use--and you always use more slow-burning powder to get the same velocity for the same shot charge--the more recoil you get.

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Originally Posted By: craigd
Originally Posted By: L. Brown
....slow burning powder is already starting out in a hole when it comes to recoil. I'll admit it's not a particularly deep hole, but science does show that the slow-burning powder produces more measurable recoil than a fast-burning powder. Excellent example from the Alliant website:

....1 oz load....
....1200 fps....
....Takes almost 3 more grains of Green Dot (19.8) to match it....

....I admit that I'm also assuming....

....if what you believe is that it's chiseled in stone that a slower-burning powder in two loads of equal shot charge producing equal velocity will produce less recoil....

Larry, have you run the numbers, 7016.9 grains vs. 7019.8 grains? No kidding, that's not a particularly deep hole.

Anyway, you started off acknowledging 'felt' and 'perceived', why did you drop it? At the very least, can't we show the graphs 'proving' the necessarily higher pressure a faster powder needs to develop due to shorter duration, to get the same total force under the curve?


Craig, didn't I state that it wasn't a particularly deep hole? But it is a scientifically measurable hole, isn't it?

Since we can measure pressure . . . Craig, why do you think that pressure is NOT included in the formula used to compute recoil? If pressure has a measurable impact on recoil, I'd think it would be included in the formula. Instead, it's rather conspicuous by its absence.

So we're left with measuring what people feel. And why should it come as a surprise, in what Thomas reported, that people felt what the recoil formula tells you they SHOULD have felt?

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Unfortunate data acquired in a controlled and repeatable study

http://www.claytargettesting.com/study2/pages/study2a.html

as always, Mr. Winston has nothing but facts to contribute


Dr.WtS
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I wish I knew where an 8 lb. keg of PB was! If you have any to spare please let me know.


"As for me and my house we will shoot Damascus!"
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Originally Posted By: L. Brown
....But it is a scientifically measurable hole, isn't it?

Since we can measure pressure . . . Craig, why do you think that pressure is NOT included in the formula used to compute recoil? If pressure has a measurable impact on recoil, I'd think it would be included in the formula. Instead, it's rather conspicuous by its absence....

Larry, I was just pointing out that your 'scientifically measurable hole' amounted to something like .04% more mass being ejected. Of course that number is measurable, I was just scratching my head that you used it as justification for the higher felt recoil of low pressure loads in the GT piece.

As to not using pressure, maybe that's just convenience or laziness. I would think it's much easier to weigh payloads and record velocities. But, somehow or another, velocity was created in a way related to pressure and different pressure curves may be related to varying rates of acceleration, again for all else being equal except for fast vs. slower powders.

I'm pretty sure some people can detect differences in pressure and acceleration, in non shooting situations. It seems that those things are undetectable as they relate to the so called calculated total recoil vs. quantifying felt recoil, or are they?

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Thank you. Someone actually came up with one. I have used green dot in the past but typically it has higher pressures in almost every gauge.


"As for me and my house we will shoot Damascus!"
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Ive used 800x for 20+ years now. Ive never had 1 single issue with the stuff. Yes, no doubt its messy (flakes everywhere when reloading), it leaves residue in the bores (no big deal, I clean barrels after each use anyway). I have really had no issues with consistency in regards to drop weights. I still use 800x if Im loading 1 1/8 loads (rare for me, unless Im loading for waterfowl, sometimes a heavy pheasant load or two). Ive heard for years that 800x could become unreliable in cold weather. I havent experienced that. Im not quite sure what others consider cold, but Midwest winters can be somewhat brutal, and Ive also used the loads on ptarmigan in the interior of Alaska in December-Feb.
I have favorites when it comes to powders, and I always have a couple pounds of 8 hundy in the cabinet.

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That has been my experience as well with 800X. That is why I started the thread. I can't think of a powder that is more versatile among all of the gauges except for the .410 bore. It leaves a few flakes of powder in the bores after firing but that is easy to clean up like any other powder.


"As for me and my house we will shoot Damascus!"
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First & Foremost let me say I am not knocking 800X powder. For anyone it suits fine. I did look up a burn rate chart & it falls between Lillian's Herco & Blue Dot. I then went to Alliant's web site & looked at their Handloaders guide. GUESS What loads for either one of these powders can be found for 28 gauge through 10 gauge, they do not list 8 gauge. As I said there is Nothing "Magic" with 800X that makes it a universal powder.

Personally for my "Light" 12 gauge loads I use Green Dot. I am simply Not Hung up on this exceedingly low pressures & find the faster powder imminently better for light loads & also more economical.

Unfortunately Alliant only gave loads in the 10 gauge for 3" shells & mostly in the heavier loads. As long as one sticks to a bit milder loads a powder in the burn range of Unique can also be loaded in all the gauges mentioned.

When Black Powder was the only available propellant then of course it was used universally in all gauges. Loads were developed which fit its burn rate.
The same can be done with virtually any powder on the market which will burn successfully at shotgun pressures. One would of course have to vary the loads to fit the burn rates. 700X & 800X would of course not use the same weight shot charges, but either "Could" be loaded with appropriate charges in all gauges.

Quite often we find the small gauges being loaded heavier in proportion to their size than the larger bores so they often call for slower powders than do the larger gauges.

For instance very good loads can be had for Red Dot in the 12 gauge for 1 oz loads. It is not suitable for 3/4 oz loads in the 28, BUT, if you dropped the
shot charge to 9/16 oz then it would be ideal.

My main question is WHY would I want to limit myself to just one powder to begin with. I could do rather well with Three, one fast, one medium & one slow.


Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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