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RST is now making a good selection of 2 12 ya shells. They have a payload of 7/8 to 15/16 of an ounce- about like a 20.
Yet most of the well made 2 12ga gums weigh a bit less than a 20ga gun
Id like to hear from those of you who have owned or shot or hunted with a 2 12 bore about how they feel.
It sounds like a great Grouse/Woodxock gun!
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I had a 2 gun several years ago. It was a delight to carry. Recoil was more than expected. With some of the Euro shells it was unpleasant to shoot. RST are usually mild so recoil should be OK. Both barrels were IM on my gun. It was very effective at reasonable ranges. Hit birds with authority. Most 2 guns were made by the same maker no matter what name is on the side. Mine had 26 barrels but many are 25. Struck very, very thin to get the weight down. Its not a gun you want to fall with for fear of dents. Stock was very thin to keep weight down.
I sold mine due to lack of use and the sad fact that I could do anything it could do with a far easier to feed 20. The 20 is more versatile. You could do the same things a 2 can do with a 28 as well. Its a niche gun trying to fill a niche which does not really exist in my opinion. Fun to own and shoot but one I dont miss at all.
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Love my C. Hellis 2 incher. It's great for long carry quail hunts.
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I also enjoy my Hellis 2" very much. It's especially good to carry single handed when the other hand is needed to navigate the terrain. I think it weighs 5-8. I only shoot the RST loads, never noticed the recoil. You are correct, it's a great grouse and woodcock gun. 
My problem lies in reconciling my gross habits with my net income.
- Errol Flynn
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Bls, As KYJon said, they are a niche gun. I like the one I have and use it for quail and pheasant over pointing dogs. The shots are within 35yds. Not all the 2" guns are the same. Proofs can range from 7/8 oz to 1 1/8oz. Barrels aren't always thin and guns can be found in the .024" MWT range. Weights can range from 5lbs 3oz to 5 3/4 lbs. There isn't a big selection out there so you may be on the hunt for a few years to find one you want. RST also makes a 3/4oz load. The 2" gun topic comes up every few years. Here's one 2" guns. Ken
Last edited by KDGJ; 08/14/18 07:15 PM.
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A delight to use. Most British boxlocks were made by Skimmin & Wood and can be found with many different names as KY Jon says. Mine is named as J & W. Tolley. I tend to use Eley 2" cartridges or else load my own. They are getting harder to find and usually command a premium over other boxlocks. If you find one at the right price my advice is to snap it up. Lagopus.....
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lagopus,
Compared to the 2 1/2" double guns, which are darn good bird killers, do the 2" guns work as well hunting Grouse and Woodcock. Never owned a 2" gun before. Seems they might be a little light for pushing heavier habitat in the early part of the season. Seems both the RST and the Poly SpredR's might work real well in them however. After the leaves are mostly gone from the trees.
RGD/Dave
L.C. Smith Man
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I believe Mr. Brown bought one of these 2" guns recently. French or Belgian I think?
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2" 12 gauge guns are/were made to relieve boredom. Nothing else.
JR
Last edited by John Roberts; 08/16/18 02:22 PM.
Be strong, be of good courage.
God bless America, long live the Republic.
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Some of the scribes and 2 12ga adherents believe that the patterns thrown by the 2 12 tubes are superior to those of the 16 or 20 with equivalent loads. The knock on the 2 12 is the greater recoil.
For those of you who have used the 2 12, have you patterned them, and with what results?
Owen
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Some of the scribes and 2 12ga adherents believe that the patterns thrown by the 2 12 tubes are superior to those of the 16 or 20 with equivalent loads. The knock on the 2 12 is the greater recoil.
For those of you who have used the 2 12, have you patterned them, and with what results? I believe the supposed superiority is in shot string not pattern, which a 2D pattern would not show. Recoil force is a function of weight of payload, velocity, and weight of gun, so all other things being equal felt recoil is near identical regardless of gauge
Last edited by old colonel; 08/14/18 08:41 PM. Reason: Additional lines
Michael Dittamo
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Recoil force is a function of weight of payload, velocity, and weight of gun, so all other things being equal felt recoil is near identical regardless of gauge But .............. the equation is for calculated recoil. Felt recoil is sometimes drastically different, and is affected by the above three variables plus others. And, felt recoil is what actually matters, not what the calculator says it is. Not arguing with your statement, just pointing out that it's very hard to have two different gauge guns that have all the other factors identical. SRH
Last edited by Stan; 08/14/18 08:53 PM. Reason: clarification
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Stan, I agree. Further felt recoil is an individual thing which is also affected significantly by what the shooter has experienced and by the situation at the time of the shot. Target shooting versus game shooting
Last edited by old colonel; 08/14/18 08:56 PM.
Michael Dittamo
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I believe Me. Brown bought one of these 2" guns recently. French or Belgian I think? I own that gun now, a French Mondiale. It is my third 2" gun. Had a Hellis and a Arrieta. I guess I can't live without one.
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I believe that the size and shape of the butt, whether or not it has a soft recoil pad in place, the LOP, the pitch, the DAC and DAH all affect felt recoil. I would add that I can feel a difference with different shells at exactly the same velocity sometimes. Some have a "sharper" recoil than others, not hurtful, just a noticeable difference, possibly because of powder burning rates? I dunno. I just know I often notice it, and after 20-30 rounds I no longer do.
Some even argue that lengthened forcing cones affect felt recoil. I have no opinion on that one................ I can't prove it either way.
SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Again, I find myself in agreement, as felt recoil has many variables apart from math
Michael Dittamo
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Nice felt recoil discussion, but I don't feel a lot of recoil shooting RST 2" or their 2 1/2" shells. :-)
Ken
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After running several inconclusive experiments on felt recoil vs calculated recoil, I concluded that humans' nerve systems react to recoil (and other forces) at differing rates. That is, one guy can sense/feel the varying accelerations of the ejecta down the barrel while another only senses the shot as one event and agrees with the calculated recoil.
DDA
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I think you're right, Don. And I also believe that more a person shoots, the more sensitive they are to such minor differences.
There are vast differences in how people perceive, and notice things. I am very noticeable of symmetry, paintings hanging crooked on a wall, things out of balance.....while my wife is not. She however, notices many things I don't, and the things that bug her I don't pay any attention to. I think that people's "wiring" may be as different as their fingerprints.
SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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My remark about unpleasant recoil concerned several of the factory loads. I had a very comfortable Federal paper, roll crimped, reload. But it was either the Lyalvale or the Agulia shells which were too hot by half. Worse than many factory 2 1/2 shells with more shot. RST shells have always been very pleasant to shoot. Perhaps with RST shells I would not notice the recoil but back then they did not have extensive loads for sale. My loads came from Alliant Powder and Hodgdon Powder using cut down Federal Paper hulls and those were pussy cats to shoot.
Recoil is just physics. Light gun, heavy or fast loads will give more recoil than a heavier gun shooting the same load. Stock configuration can give you a little more in the cheek area if you have a fat face like I do or get down overly hard onto the comb.
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I think you're right, Don. And I also believe that more a person shoots, the more sensitive they are to such minor differences.
There are vast differences in how people perceive, and notice things. I am very noticeable of symmetry, paintings hanging crooked on a wall, things out of balance.....while my wife is not. She however, notices many things I don't, and the things that bug her I don't pay any attention to. I think that people's "wiring" may be as different as their fingerprints.
Stan, what you have said has made more sense to me than anything else said on this topic!! In my 60+ years of shooting I have come to categorize recoil as follows: 1. Kicks like a mule, or 2. Noticeable, but tolerable. Not very scientific and I am certainly not belittling the learned comments made by others here in this post, but I feel recoil differently on any given day depending on so many different factors that I just choose to ignore them. Besides, when the shout of "rooster" is heard in the field, I would not hesitate to throw a howitzer to my shoulder and fire away!!!
SRH
Perry M. Kissam
NRA Patron Life Member
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No one likes recoil. We shoot better without it. My "big game" rifle for everything is a Brno circa 1950 7 X 57 which I think JOC referred to as a "woman's rifle" for its low recoil, used by his wife Eleanor. None of my shotguns are uncomfortable because I load/reload appropriately. Magnumitis to my mind is an astonishing victory for consumerism.
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To answer Ryman's question. The standard load for these guns is 7/8th. ounce. From a 12 bore this is a good killing load. Here in Britain it is not hard to find standard 2 1/2" 12 bore loads using 7/8th. ounce. I used to use an Eley one called Blue Lite which was really a clay load but performed on game without a problem in number 7 shot. One of my other favourite 7/8th. ounce loads was one made by Sellior & Bellot called the Practice & Vermin cartridge with a paper roll crimp case and size 6 1/2 shot. A good many rabbits and pheasants were accounted for by this load. Sadly it is no longer available but I recently sourced a flat of 250. Failing that Lyalvale Express make a 7/8th. ounce 6 1/2 shot round in aplastic crimped case that is an excellent game getter. Yes, 7/8th. ounce loads are often all you need.
Reference the recoil in the light 2" I have never found the slightest discomfort with my reloads and Eley ammo. I do hear that the Lyalvale 2" is a bit punchy. I have used their earlier ones with no problem but recent reports show that the later offering may be a tad uncomfortable. I have recently managed to get a couple of boxes but am yet to try the theory. Lagopus.....
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2" 12 gauge guns are/were made to relieve boredom. Nothing else.
JR I was thinking the same...about all of my guns.  I have a 20ga M12 with a $1500 piece of wood on it. That's some boredom relief! And some of my 410s.... 
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Just a thought for those of you that have a 2" 12ga gun and may be looking for alternatives to English ammo. There's an ammo maker Aguila that makes a 1 3/4" shell in 7 1/2 shot that I found to be very modest in recoil with the 5/8 oz load spec'd at 1200 fps. Enough shot for quail and dove and produces fantastic patterns. I didn't pressure test any of them, but the indications on the brass were very light. I stumbled on a bunch on sale cheap years ago and bought a bit. They have a special plastic pedal shot cup too. Shot some dove and quail. But my 12s are heavy.
Last edited by Chuck H; 08/19/18 09:04 AM.
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I was under the impression those 1-3/4 Aguilas were made specifically for increasing magazine capacity for home defense weapons and were powerful enough to cycle an autoloader. Not sure what they'd do to a lightweight 2" 12ga.
My problem lies in reconciling my gross habits with my net income.
- Errol Flynn
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I believe Me. Brown bought one of these 2" guns recently. French or Belgian I think? I own that gun now, a French Mondiale. It is my third 2" gun. Had a Hellis and a Arrieta. I guess I can't live without one. That is a dandy little gun in terms of condition . . . with which I could not hit squat. Glad to pass it on to my friend Pete, and hope he does well slaying UP grouse and woodcock with it. At 5 1/4#, it will certainly be easy to carry through the cover. I'm now shooting a 28" Brit 20 gauge which weighs between 2-3 oz more than that 2" gun. Not only can I shoot it much better at skeet (I think the longer barrels, as much as anything, help in that department), but it's a piece of cake for me to work up 3/4 oz target reloads. Unless you really like to tinker, with a 2" gun, you're pretty much stuck with factory ammo. I would have been happy enough to live with that if, after shooting several rounds of skeet, I'd had results good enough to convince me I wanted to use it for grouse and woodcock. Had that been the case, I would have largely confined it to the gun cabinet until the season opened, then turned it loose on the birds. Instead, my little Alex Martin BLNE 20 will see more time both at skeet and in the woods. And it's almost a clone of the first Brit double I ever owned, 25+ years ago--except that Martin was a 16.
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I was under the impression those 1-3/4 Aguilas were made specifically for increasing magazine capacity for home defense weapons and were powerful enough to cycle an autoloader. Not sure what they'd do to a lightweight 2" 12ga. Rob, I don't think they have anywhere near the power to cycle a gas or recoil auto. They pop like a 2 1/2" 410. The actual spec is 1175 fps, 5/8 oz. Possibly, the slug and buckshot loads are hotter than the birdshot load.
Last edited by Chuck H; 08/20/18 02:10 AM.
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With 5/8 oz of shot @ 1175 fps anything over 4 lbs is not needed to "Tame That Vicious" recoil.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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I own two, 2 inch 12 bore's and love them. One is a W.J. Jeffrey and the other a B. Halliday - both London guns but probably made by Skimmin and Wood. The Jeffrey has 26" barrels and weighs 5 lb. 4 ounces. The Halliday has 28 inch barrels and weighs 5 lb. 8 ounces. I seem to shoot the Halliday better because of the longer barrels. I shoot RST loads and though I am sensitive to recoil, I can't recall that felt recoil was ever an issue for me. The W.J. Jeffrey is the nicest gun I have every carried afield and with its svelte wrist and light weight it seems almost like a toy. I have even taken them both on pheasant drives and as long as I pick my shots, they are deadly with 6's, although I use them primarily for grouse and WC.
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Thank you Chuck, I may have to try the birdshot loads.
My problem lies in reconciling my gross habits with my net income.
- Errol Flynn
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I don't recall seeing the option of the modern Spanish 2" guns mentioned. Arrieta made some. I believe AyA may have as well. And they're proofed to the same standards as a CIP "standard proof" gun. The negative is that they're heavier than the original Brit 2" guns, usually right around 6 pounds. If you look a bit, you can find 2 1/2" (and even the occasional 2 3/4") Brit 12 that light. So if you're going after a 2" gun for reduced weight, they don't make much sense. But if you believe the 2" load possesses some sort of magic, I guess it would make sense . . . but then you could also just buy the shells and shoot them in a very light 2 1/2" or 2 3/4" 12.
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Larry, as I mentioned in a previous post that 7/8th. ounce game loads in 2 1/2" cases can be obtained and, as you assert, are ideal in a light double 12. They kill well if not stretched and are pleasant to use. I rarely use anything much heavier than 1 ounce or 1 1/16th. ounce for all my game shooting. I use my 2" gun just for the pleasure it gives. Very fast handling for flighting pigeons coming in to roost. They are scarce and not really being made any more. There might be the odd barrelled action floating around in the gun Trade but it would cost a lot to have one made up. I'm sure that Hollands or Purdeys would make up a nice 2" sidelock to order for not much under £100,000! Lagopus.....
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Lagopus, Here's a nice used 2" Purdey for $38,000. Although, it is a little heavier at 5lbs 10oz. Ken Purdey 2"
Last edited by KDGJ; 08/21/18 05:45 PM.
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Thanks. I think I could live with the extra ounce or two for that beauty! Lagopus.....
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Came in late. I used a2" Alex Martin 12b for 2 seasons. Absolutely the best grouse gun I ever owned. Themain difference for me was the handling requirements. The gun could not be manipulated. It demanded smooth acquisition with economy of motion. With proper technique it was a wand.
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Curious, why is it no longer your grouse gun?
My problem lies in reconciling my gross habits with my net income.
- Errol Flynn
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Many of the scribes and big bore adherents also bash patterns from .410s, especially in the heavier payloads, by playing the "increased bore scrubbing" and "increased setback damage" cards. Fact is, game birds can't tell the difference. And, after a lifetime of use in the field, I can't either.
If you put the load where it needs to be the bird doesn't know if it was killed with a 3/4 oz. 12 ga. load or a 3/4 oz. .410 load. And, you won't be able to tell the difference either. Writers feed off each other's writings, and hypothetical postulates are perpetuated. Field use, and the pattern plate, proves many of them wrong, wrong, wrong.
JR is exactly right. A 7/8 oz. load is better served today delivered from a 20 than a 12. Unless you own stock in RST, that is.
SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Stan do you ever tire of singing back up for JR'a ? You sure do like to refer to the NEW pattern plate...you've had for years. Why the need to troll a .410 into a 12 ga. thread ?
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2" 12 gauge guns are/were made to relieve boredom. Nothing else.
JR JR'a I hope that statement was meant as a joke....if it was it looks like yer bud Stan missed the punch line. A 2" 12 gauge was made because it offered a squared load. Do you really think English makers designed guns out of boredom ?
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2" 12 gauge guns are/were made to relieve boredom. Nothing else.
JR They were made because they offered a squared load. Define a squared load, personally I don't believe you will find it in the 2" 12 gauge. Also personally I "Do Not" put much stock in a square load. As to the 3/4 oz load in a 12 vs a .410 one is much more apt to find a higher central thickening in the .410 pattern than the 12. This would give a slight ranged advantage to the .410 but a slightly wider killing pattern with the 12. I do not believe this has much to do with either shot scrubbing or set back but more to the fact that a far higher percentage of the shot is influenced by the choke in the longer, slimmer column of the small bore. As has been said many times. "There Is No Free Lunch".
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Miller why did you not copy my comment in its entirety.
A black man I worked with thought the foe tin shot farther and harder than a twelve because he said "it just goes to figure the foe tin would shoot father and tighter than a twelve guage because the barrel is smaller so it's gots to shoot tighter".
I gave up shooting and thinking about .410s long before I reached puberty.
I know you're a smart man but do you really think what you find and what gun makers like Purdey and others found a 100 years ago equal comparison ?
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2" 12 gauge guns are/were made to relieve boredom. Nothing else.
JR JR'a I hope that statement was meant as a joke....if it was it looks like yer bud Stan missed the punch line. A 2" 12 gauge was made because it offered a squared load. Do you really think English makers designed guns out of boredom Joe; I have no problem with quoting the entire answer. I was only questioning the statement concerning the 'Square Load". Through the years I have seen three definitions of a square load. #1; It is a load in which the shot load is equal to the weight of the round ball of gauge size. #2; It is a load in which the shot & powder occupy an equal volume. #3; It is a load in which the shot column has a length equal to its diameter. "ANY" gauge gun Can be loaded to any one of these three conditions, though very few standard loads fit any of these definitions. In the 12 gauge the shot load = the round ball would be 1 1/3 oz. I have no knowledge of this shot load having ever been used as they normally go in 1/8 oz increments, with an occasional 1/16 oz increment. #3 condition with the shot column in the 12 gauge having a bore diameter length (729") would be a load of 1 1/16oz, which was a standard British load from WWI forward for the 2½" shell, not the 2" one. For the #2 load of equal volume, this can be in any gauge with any load which will fit the case, This, of course, requires either Black or Bulk smokeless powder. Definitely would not recommend using a shot measure for Red Dot or even Blue Dot. Personally, I believe the "Reason" for the 2" 12was strictly because the Brits were a Nation of 12 "Bore" (Their term) shooters & for the most part had little use for a smaller gauge. The 2"12 was their answer for a "20" gauge being of 20 weight & firing a 20 load, but they didn't want to be seen afield carrying a "Woman's or Kid's gun". As it was not designed to shoot with a square load, with the exception possibly of loads of bulk smokeless, I do not see this as being a reason for its existence. PS; I do not see "Boredom" as a reason either John, just an expansion of the market. When one gets down to the nitty-gritty, with 12 gauge guns having been made from under 6 lbs to as much as 10 or even more & firing from 3/4 oz to more than 2 oz there is truly not much "Need" for anything else in a Sporting Gun.
Last edited by 2-piper; 03/09/19 12:05 AM. Reason: Added PS
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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That's because like us they were once a nation of men.
In those days I don't think they thought in terms of marketing in gun design like we've witnessed.
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When one gets down to the nitty-gritty, with 12 gauge guns having been made from under 6 lbs to as much as 10 or even more & firing from 3/4 oz to more than 2 oz there is truly not much "Need" for anything else in a Sporting Gun.
"Need" Too true. I think that way, even though I enjoy 16g, I can do what it does & each side of that with a 12g. Here in Australia the 12g is king & you are sort of wildly eccentric to shoot any other gauge or even other than 2 3/4 shells. O.M
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You are lucky you can have any kind of gun.
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I have a couple of under 6# 12ga sxs's although neither of them are 2" they are really handy to hunt upland birds with, so much so that I have sold all my 20ga shotguns but one for shooting steel shot. I have a number of 12ga shotguns with 2 1/2"-2 3/4" chambers and haven't shot any load larger than 1 oz except 1 1/4oz of NP BB's in my coyote hunting combo gun. I could see where a 2" 12ga would be a very nice hunting shotgun.  Bernardelli 12ga 5 lb 15 oz
Last edited by oskar; 03/09/19 10:48 AM.
After the first shot the rest are just noise.
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That's because like us they were once a nation of men.
I've known and hunted over the years with serious bird hunters, "men" who fought and survived WWII and preferred 16 gauges to hunt "pahtrijes" here in Georgia. Show up now with a 12 gauge at a SW Ga. quail property and see how far you get pulling out a 12 gauge of any description before you are told "no".
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Oskar,
I realize you said you had a specific coyote combo gun, but, it bares mentioning that a 1 1/4 oz load of large shot in a light double might lead to a ring bulge.
People forget that there were guns with ring bulges before steel came along.
Best,
Ted
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Gee whiz that is a tough crowd Gil. I do not even own a shotgun that is not a 12 bore. I only have two, both 2&1/2" British 12's. Never even considered that they could be "too much gun" for any upland situation. Different strokes for different folks I guess.
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Steve, it's the Golden Rule when it comes to quail hunting in SW Ga. "he who has the gold, rules". And no pumps or autos. Gil
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Show up now with a 12 gauge at a SW Ga. quail property and see how far you get pulling out a 12 gauge of any description before you are told "no". Why? I see SKB is wondering too. ____________________________ Honey, honey https://youtu.be/h9nE2spOw_o
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I am starting to get the feeling a "proper gentleman" only shoots small bore doubles. I never really was very proper.
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Steve, it's the Golden Rule when it comes to quail hunting in SW Ga. "he who has the gold, rules". And no pumps or autos. Gil Do you have to wear gay apparel also or is Carhartt ok? _________________________ Fellers likely pass oot from the fantods if I show up with my Ithacer 37 and blue jeans.
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Theory is the 12 sends a wider pattern fringing but not immediately downing quail which fly and ultimately die from the wound. Repeaters are banned to protect covey size. According to Tall Timbers quail research which recommended to a friend building wild quail on his property, coveys shouldn't be hunted more than 4 times a season to insure its survival.
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Steve, it's the Golden Rule when it comes to quail hunting in SW Ga. "he who has the gold, rules". And no pumps or autos. Gil Do you have to wear gay apparel also or is Carhartt ok? _________________________ Fellers likely pass oot from the fantods if I show up with my Ithacer 37 and blue jeans. At several North Florida and SW Georgia plantations, hunters and dog handlers are furnished traditional white vests or jackets while hunting for visibility. They are heavy into tradition just as across the pond tweeds and ties and no camo on estate shoots. Gil
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Yeah, Ill never get invited to Augusta neither.
________________________
Reckon Im doomed to play my dog track muni. Meh, I have fun regardless.
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Interesting historical information regarding the British 2" shell here. The "advantage" appears to have been for the unfortunates who did not have someone to carry their cartridges for them on long day's hunt https://books.google.com/books?id=inQCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA279#v=onepage&q&f=falseThere appears to have been difficulty using Black Powder or Bulk Smokeless, and with combustion using Ballistite Dense, so there was a trial of 1 1/8 oz. 3 Dr. Eq. 2 1/2" shells in 2" chambers with long forcing cones, with little increase in pressure.
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Yeah, Ill never get invited to Augusta neither.
________________________
Reckon Im doomed to play my dog track muni. Meh, I have fun regardless. Closest I've ever gotten to the National was next door when my sister won her third USGA Junior championship at the Augusta Country Club in 1971.
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Steve, it's the Golden Rule when it comes to quail hunting in SW Ga. "he who has the gold, rules". And no pumps or autos. Gil Do you have to wear gay apparel also or is Carhartt ok? _________________________ Fellers likely pass oot from the fantods if I show up with my Ithacer 37 and blue jeans. "Gay apparal" is not always required, but I think it's the .410 that gets me invited back...Geo 
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That's because like us they were once a nation of men.
I've known and hunted over the years with serious bird hunters, "men" who fought and survived WWII and preferred 16 gauges to hunt "pahtrijes" here in Georgia. Show up now with a 12 gauge at a SW Ga. quail property and see how far you get pulling out a 12 gauge of any description before you are told "no". The quail gun of the south was the Browning Auto 5 Sweet Sixteen. Only guys that weren't shooting one were the guys that couldn't afford one.
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Geo, You post some of my favorite pics. You have some good friends too. ____________________________ https://youtu.be/lYWPYnTYy2U
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I am starting to get the feeling a "proper gentleman" only shoots small bore doubles. I never really was very proper. Steve he's talking out his arse.
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George for released quail you could get buy with a long handled tennis racket...a long handled dip net would be murder.
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"The quail gun of the south was the Browning Auto 5 Sweet Sixteen. Only guys that weren't shooting one were the guys that couldn't afford one."
True that...Geo
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A good friend's dad was a quail guide in Emmanuel County, Ga, growing up. Sports from the north would come down by train and stay at Coleman's Lake Resort and ole' Tangerine (guess his hair color) would take sports quail hunting. He made more in tips than his dad made at the local saw mill. He carried a 16 ga. Ithaca pump. My buddy's dad always had six pointers. Two pups, two young dogs in training, and the 2 "pros", the made dogs. The coveyrise counter was a box of matches. For each coveyrise, Jerry would take out a match and put it in his shirt pocket. At day's end, the matches were counted. His dad wouldn't let him skin out the birds. Jerry had to pluck out each and every bird. Here's Thomas Turner's effort to make a lightweight 12 with 2.5" chambers . Gun is 28" Damascus barrels made no latter than 1887 according to proof marks. Stock is scalloped on both sides and forend is much shorter than conventional. 6 lbs., 1 oz. I shoot low pressure loads, 7/8 oz. At some point in the gun's history, the right side of the stock was peppered with shot. Because of the quality of the photo, one can barely see the lead putty attempts to cover the holes. When asked by the man who I sent the gun for sprucing up, he asked if I wanted the shot repairs to be concealed. "Better to leave as be." was my response. If only it could say how it happened. Gil   
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Theory is the 12 sends a wider pattern fringing but not immediately downing quail which fly and ultimately die from the wound. Repeaters are banned to protect covey size. According to Tall Timbers quail research which recommended to a friend building wild quail on his property, coveys shouldn't be hunted more than 4 times a season to insure its survival. Reality is "ALL" shotgun patterns have an in-efficient fringe around the outer edge of the pattern. "IF" you do a bit of pattern testing you might be well surprised to find that with the 12 vs a small bore using identical shot loads the 12 will have a bigger effective pattern with a narrower ineffective pattern than the small bore even though both have an identical percent in the 30" circle. This is a result of that greater "Central Thickening" of the pattern already referred to. As already mentioned the higher the central thickening of the pattern the greater the max effective range with a "Centered Hit", but the wider the ineffective fringe. Personally, I consider the banning of a light 12 using light loads nothing but "Pure Snobbery", not based on any real evidence, PS; I too love the 16 gauge for upland use with the old standard 2½-1 field load in the appropriate shot size for the game at hand. I have also done some great shooting (For ME) with a light 12 carrying essentially the same load & also a 20 with this same load, a personal favorite load of mine, but I do not care to shoot an ounce of shot from a gun smaller than the 20.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Miller, I think the same about light loads in the 12. In 40 years I have had one such opportunity to hunt such a place that had numerous wild birds and private ownership. I don't disagree about repeaters being banned on quail property. Last thing a responsible hunter wants to have happen is for a covey to be reduced in numbers that imperils its survival. I've heard stories of autos nailing more than five on a coveyrise with and without crossing birds. As for 16s, it's my favorite gauge for quail and woodcock. I'm not shy about using a 20, either. Gil
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What year did this guiding take place ?
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Just before the war. He guided for the Coleman Hotel, which became a resort and now is a restaurant. The hotel supplied the dogs and had access to the land. Often the sports would bring their own dogs. Back then it was all about the coveyrise and singles weren't normally pursued. He was 13 when he started guiding and bought the Ithaca when he was 17. It had to be one of the earliest models as the 16 wasn't introduced until 1938 and had the cigar shaped forend. Jerry said he hunted with the old Ithaca up until he couldn't hunt any more. Jerry remembers him shooting it faster on target than folks shooting autos. He'd bring home more money guiding than his dad did at the sawmill and following a mule pulling a plow. He also had a lot more fun. Jerry was supposed to inherit the gun but Hugh sold it for $40 and the kid who bought it shot it after it got plugged with mud. Jerry is still sick about it. He learned how to shoot on it after graduating from a .410. Aside from making money, one of the Yankees taught Jerry's dad how to use a fly rod. He never fished anything but a fly rod with live bait or poppers for red breasts and bream. He was a character for sure. He's been gone for 10 years.
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An old friend, and hunting buddy of my Grandad's, told me of an incident, after Grandaddy died. Grandaddy shot a '97 pump back then. The dogs pointed on his side of an old house spot. Grandaddy saw the covey on the ground and shot into them, killing seven with the shot. He then killed six more as they got up, with the remaining six shells.
Those were the meat hunting days, and Grandaddy said he would sometimes kill 50 in a day's hunting. Different times, different circumstances. Probably killed way over half the covey with that one rise. Kinda sad to think about today.
SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Geo, it's time you display your granddad's string of quail. A great photo, btw. Gil
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Geo, it's time you display your granddad's string of quail. A great photo, btw. Gil Thanks Gil. I hate to wear out the welcome by posting that particular pic too often. It means too much to me...Geo But if you like dead bird pictures, I could post some of my Argentina excesses. I bet JR would really love that.
Last edited by Geo. Newbern; 03/09/19 03:41 PM. Reason: added final sentence
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Lost my setter. Tried hunting over others but the magic was gone. Went in other directions. No regrets. Thats why I sold the Alex Martin.
Last edited by JHJ; 03/09/19 04:33 PM.
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An old friend, and hunting buddy of my Grandad's, told me of an incident, after Grandaddy died. Grandaddy shot a '97 pump back then. The dogs pointed on his side of an old house spot. Grandaddy saw the covey on the ground and shot into them, killing seven with the shot. He then killed six more as they got up, with the remaining six shells.
Those were the meat hunting days, and Grandaddy said he would sometimes kill 50 in a day's hunting. Different times, different circumstances. Probably killed way over half the covey with that one rise. Kinda sad to think about today.
SRH I would never have repeated that story... The seven on the ground is believable not sure about six more on the rise. Getting a little grandpa deep don't ya think. Just saying.
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I'd be careful referring to others as "yankee sports" if'n I was shooting a small bore Yiltz shotgun at turkeys...
Just saying spOrt.
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Here's one. Marietta, GA 1905 Duzzat look kinda like a 2" game gun Guy Roberts is holding? Nah, looks more like a Pahkuh.  SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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I believe the 2" 12 was actually developed before the 2" gun. My interest in it was based not in ballistic performance. I wanted one. Thats it. The scale in the gunsmiths shop settled at 4lb 14oz. This light weight forced me to adapt to the gun. Old sight pictures became useless. A smooth mount to the front with shot almost immediate is how I can best describe it. No, I bought that gun because it looked like it would be fun. That it worked out so well was a happy accident.
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Here's one. Marietta, GA 1905 Duzzat look kinda like a 2" game gun Guy Roberts is holding? Nah, looks more like a Pahkuh. SRH 2" will always remain a novelty. A highly effective novelty in the right hands.
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He then killed six more as they got up, with the remaining six shells.
Stan,
Did your grandpa have an extended magazine on that Winchester (presumably?) 97? I never saw one that held 7 rounds??
Perry M. Kissam
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I'd be careful referring to others as "yankee sports" if'n I was shooting a small bore Yiltz shotgun at turkeys...
Just saying spOrt. Someone remind me in the future if Mr. Manners should ever ask me a question not to bother responding. It ain't worth the effort and it's pointless to be polite. I knew there was a good reason to keep him on ignore.
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I dunno Perry. I never saw it. He was shooting a Rem. M11 16 ga. by the time I came along. That's just what Mr. Starr Smith told me. He coulda' shot it empty and thrown one in the chamber, I guess. In hindsight, Mr. Starr might not have said anything about "the remaining six shells". Been a long time ago. I'm sure about the 13 birds number, though.
I thought '97s held one in the chamber and 6 in the tube. But, I've never owned one.
SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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What year did this guiding take place ? Just before the war. He guided for the Coleman Hotel, which became a resort and now is a restaurant. The hotel supplied the dogs and had access to the land. Often the sports would bring their own dogs. Back then it was all about the coveyrise and singles weren't normally pursued. He was 13 when he started guiding and bought the Ithaca when he was 17. It had to be one of the earliest models as the 16 wasn't introduced until 1938 and had the cigar shaped forend. Jerry said he hunted with the old Ithaca up until he couldn't hunt any more. Jerry remembers him shooting it faster on target than folks shooting autos. He'd bring home more money guiding than his dad did at the sawmill and following a mule pulling a plow. He also had a lot more fun. Jerry was supposed to inherit the gun but Hugh sold it for $40 and the kid who bought it shot it after it got plugged with mud. Jerry is still sick about it. He learned how to shoot on it after graduating from a .410. Aside from making money, one of the Yankees taught Jerry's dad how to use a fly rod. He never fished anything but a fly rod with live bait or poppers for red breasts and bream. He was a character for sure. He's been gone for 10 years.
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He then killed six more as they got up, with the remaining six shells.
Stan,
Did your grandpa have an extended magazine on that Winchester (presumably?) 97? I never saw one that held 7 rounds?? Perry I bet he had 2" shells...
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I'd be careful referring to others as "yankee sports" if'n I was shooting a small bore Yiltz shotgun at turkeys...
Just saying spOrt. Someone remind me in the future if Mr. Manners should ever ask me a question not to bother responding. I knew there was a good reason to keep him on ignore. Make my day Ignore me spOrt.
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Aside from making money, one of the Yankees taught Jerry's dad how to use a fly rod. He never fished anything but a fly rod with live bait or poppers for red breasts and bream.
How much teaching you figure it took to teach a southern boy how to dunk a cricket with a fly rod ? Just curious spOrt...
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Stan,
Neither do I. I know one in the chamber but I am only familiar with 4 more normally. It doesn't matter because I am not doubting your grandfather or the individual who told you. As for shooting into a covey, well back then that was pretty much the order of the day and with wide open choked guns I don't doubt the number killed. Additionally, having seen an old man I knew when I was young kill quail on the rise with a .22 I am not doubting what anyone says. Those old guys hunted for food or money, so I am guessing that they became pretty good shots!!
Joe, after all the other 8 pages on these 2 inch shells I had to laugh at your comment!! It was funny and almost had me wishing I had said it!!!
Perry M. Kissam
NRA Patron Life Member
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Sidelock
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My money is on 13 shot on the ground...
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The Win model 1897/97 had a 5 round magazine plus one in the chamber for a total of 6 shots, Except, the Brush & Riot models with their shorter barrels also had a shorter magazine, though not sure how much, likely that's where the 4 round magazine came from.
"IF" it would hold 5 roll crimp 2 3/4" shells it may be possible it would have accepted 6,
2 5/8 fold crimp shells, though not certain.
Last edited by 2-piper; 03/09/19 10:45 PM.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Miller do you think it mathematically possible to kill 13 quail on the ground with one shot from a 12 guage when fired into a covey of quail ?
Just curious...
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Sidelock
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The scale in the gunsmiths shop settled at 4lb 14oz. This light weight forced me to adapt to the gun. Old sight pictures became useless. A smooth mount to the front with shot almost immediate is how I can best describe it. I shoot some very lightweight guns for doves and quail, and the style I have to use to shoot well is exactly as you described. I, too, have to trigger the gun almost as soon as my cheek hits the wood. If I track the bird, even a short piece, like I do with a heavier gun, it's almost a guaranteed miss. The guns I have to shoot like this weigh from 4 - 14 to 6 - 7. A skeet field is a good place to practice this style shooting. SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Sidelock
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An old friend, and hunting buddy of my Grandad's, told me of an incident, after Grandaddy died. Grandaddy shot a '97 pump back then. The dogs pointed on his side of an old house spot. Grandaddy saw the covey on the ground and shot into them, killing seven with the shot. He then killed six more as they got up, with the remaining six shells.
Those were the meat hunting days, and Grandaddy said he would sometimes kill 50 in a day's hunting. Different times, different circumstances. Probably killed way over half the covey with that one rise. Kinda sad to think about today.
SRH A friend spoke recently at another friend's funeral and in his eulogy said a person dies twice. First the physical death and then when no one alive remembers the departed. Bubba said as long as he lived, Pete wouldn't die a second time. These stories about loved ones shared after their deaths help keep them from dying a second time. After reading this, I thought about your granddad and remembered the account of how moved he was when you came home from college and told him you wanted to be a farmer like him. Thanks for sharing. Gil
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There's some things better left untold...
Shooting into a covey of quail on the ground is one of them.
How does every thread turn into a grand pappy story ?
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Miller do you think it mathematically possible to kill 13 quail on the ground with one shot from a 12 guage when fired into a covey of quail ?
Just curious... Well, let's see, shooting a '97 pump he most likely was using 1 1/8oz of shot, assuming #8s that's 461 pellets or about 35 per bird. Yep, I'd say it was "mathematically" possible.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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How does every thread turn into a grand pappy story ?
Just so happens that when some folk were created they had a heart put in their chest that does more than just pump blood. O.M
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Just so happens that when some folk were created they had a heart put in their chest that does more than just pump blood. Thanks, O.M. I hope I don't talk about him too much on here. When someone has been such a huge part of your life, and taught you so much, it's hard not to. None of my friends have ever seemed to mind, over the last 44 years. SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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I certainly have no problems with it Stan. I know that my grandfather had a lot to do with making me who I am today.
Perry M. Kissam
NRA Patron Life Member
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I always found it odd as term of endearment until I worked in The South and learned it was authentic of the vernacular. I like it. It seems more personal and loving than GrandDad, Grandpa or Gramps.
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Just so happens that when some folk were created they had a heart put in their chest that does more than just pump blood.
O.M
Thank God for that seeing my blood is half fat and cholesterol. What can I say, I like my bacon and eggs. I always found it odd as term of endearment until I worked in The South and learned it was authentic of the vernacular. I like it. It seems more personal and loving than GrandDad, Grandpa or Gramps. Figured you were over in Brussels working on Brexit or dead. Good to see you post. ________________________ My Grandpa taught me how to live off the land And his taught him to be a business man. Hank Williams Jr https://youtu.be/3cQNkIrg-Tk
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There's some things better left untold...
Shooting into a covey of quail on the ground is one of them. Funny how you pick and choose the things you think are shameful. Shooting into a covey of birds on the ground was no more illegal than your killing five turkeys in one day was ............. and no more unethical, either. You were so proud of it that you took pictures and posted them on the internet. The job of providing meat for the table was a whole lot harder in the 1920s than it was when you were on your turkey killing spree. Meat hunters are meat hunters .................and game hogs are game hogs. Your hypocrisy knows no bounds. SRH
Last edited by Stan; 03/10/19 03:23 PM.
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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So you equate me killing 5 turkeys in a day of hunting to your grand pappy shooting into a covey of quail sitting on the ground....
Best fry you up another jOe'ja tOad'e frOg.
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Let us see into your mind. Pray tell us how you see the killing of five turkeys, legally, in a day, as being higher ethically than the killing of 13 quail out of a covey for meat, legally, shooting some of them on the ground, in the 1920s.
SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Sidelock
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Just remember Stan you asked.....
What I did ethically and legally in a days hunt has little to do with the unethical and despicable thing your grandaddy did shooting into a covey of quail on the ground.
I'm a turkey hunter I don't hunt with decoys or blinds....I don't shoot turkeys off the roost or over bait. Nor would I ever shoot into a flock of turkeys.
Over the course of a day I shot each turkey individually on two different winter breaks with my turkey dog....fact is I had one get away I shot with the old Scott sidelock on the first set or I would have killed 6 that day and on the second break I could've killed the 6th turkey but chose not two. TWRA game and fish set the limits not me...because I tried to fill the bag limit doesn't make me a game hog.
Fact is any kind of hunting is better with a dog.
Fact is if you can't see what he did was despicable in any upland hunters eyes I can't make you see it....
Times were hard for some back then for sure my mom and dad said they never knew there was a depression....evidently he wasn't starving or too depressed if he had been he couldn't have afforded to purchase the supposed 6 or 7 seven shotgun shells to kill a meal of quail.
7 quail covey shot on the ground and 6 in the air with his trusty 97 Winchester was quite the feat....a regular Herb Parsons feat.
Did he drive a Winchester car ?
You want to brag...next time brag about something believable instead of an embellished excuse for shooting 13 of quail on the ground.
Just my observation...
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Just remember Stan you asked.....
What I did ethically and legally in a days hunt has little to do with the unethical and despicable thing your grandaddy did shooting into a covey of quail on the ground.
I'm a turkey hunter I don't hunt with decoys or blinds....I don't shoot turkeys off the roost or over bait. Nor would I ever shoot into a flock of turkeys.
Over the course of a day I shot each turkey individually on two different winter breaks with my turkey dog....fact is I had one get away I shot with the old Scott sidelock on the first set or I would have killed 6 that day and on the second break I could've killed the 6th turkey but chose not two. TWRA game and fish set the limits not me...because I tried to fill the bag limit doesn't make me a game hog.
Fact is any kind of hunting is better with a dog.
Fact is if you can't see what he did was despicable in any upland hunters eyes I can't make you see it....
Times were hard for some back then for sure my mom and dad said they never knew there was a depression....evidently he wasn't starving or too depressed if he had been he couldn't have afforded to purchase the supposed 6 or 7 seven shotgun shells to kill a meal of quail.
7 quail covey shot on the ground and 6 in the air with his trusty 97 Winchester was quite the feat....a regular Herb Parsons feat.
Did he drive a Winchester car ?
You want to brag...next time brag about something believable instead of an embellished excuse for shooting 13 of quail on the ground.
Just my observation...
Despicable, for sure. But not what someone said someone did 100 years ago, but the attack on it by Frank is despicable. Stan shared what someone told him about his grandfather and the third party may or may not have been there. The story wasn't retold by an old man to Stan to make him feel ashamed about his grandfather. It's obvious that the third party was only trying to remind him of his grandfather, someone who had a great impact on who Stan is today. Yet, Frank wants to pick, pick away at Stan about his grandfather. He couldn't let it just sit there without picking away. He wants Stan to acknowledge shame about what his grandfather did. What kind of man would do this about another forum member's beloved grandfather? "My bet is that he shot all the birds on the ground" in an earlier thread comment is what Frank feels compelled to say as if he was there or knew Stan's grandfather. Now it's become Stan's grandfather shot them all on the ground. Frank, the Frank, we know from how he is here, often acts like a petty child with a clumsy cruel streak. It's before us all and it has been for years. If it's legal, then its ethical according to him, as to his shooting 5 turkeys in a day. Well, that's not how he feels about what others shoot at turkeys even if it's legal. Don't think for a minute that this attack is about Stan's grandfather's shooting quail on the ground. Frank always has an agenda behind his attacks and it's not his sanctimonious holier than though ethics attitude displayed here about the acts of a man who has been dead for close to half a century with the alleged acts 100 years ago. It's about a brewing perceived slight, a perceived "disrespect" that he feels Stan did to him in an earlier thread and only Frank knows what that was. There is no forgive and forget with him. I know exactly when his perceived "slight" was with me. I made efforts to apologize and make nice and deleted the comment. It was a wasted effort. He took it as weakness. Since then, it's been a pick, pick, pick away. More than one person here has occupied the space Stan sits currently with Frank, and the list is longer than his arm. He claims every thread ends with a "grandpappy" story. Obvious exaggeration, but it's no exaggeration to state that at least 4 recent threads have been locked or had comments removed because of what Frank said: pick, pick, pick away with each pick a little deeper. There's a good reason this is the only forum he visits, but don't believe for one second it's his choice. He can't go anywhere else where guns and turkeys are discussed. His story is out there, easy to find, and it doesn't end with a "grandpappy" story.
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Sidelock
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An old friend, and hunting buddy of my Grandad's, told me of an incident, after Grandaddy died. Grandaddy shot a '97 pump back then. The dogs pointed on his side of an old house spot. Grandaddy saw the covey on the ground and shot into them, killing seven with the shot. He then killed six more as they got up, with the remaining six shells.
Those were the meat hunting days, and Grandaddy said he would sometimes kill 50 in a day's hunting. Different times, different circumstances. Probably killed way over half the covey with that one rise. Kinda sad to think about today.
SRH I would never have repeated that story... The seven on the ground is believable not sure about six more on the rise. Getting a little grandpa deep don't ya think. Just saying. Here ya go spOrt here's my reply...that was all that I had to say about it. Stan came back and showed his azz as usual. Then GLS came singing back up for him....you think people don't see how your little group tries to run rough shod over peoples threads. Like I said it's not something someone should be bragging about. And no amount of whining by GLS is going to make it right or make it sound sporting. JusT call them like I see them "spOrt" Ps...or maybe I should call you spOt. Since you think you're his guard dog.
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Me, I don't have any ground-swatting stories from my Grandfather. He was a bird hunter and responsible for my love of the outdoors and sporting life as well as my own spotty regard for sporting ethics.
Far as I know he always shot'em flying. I know once when I was tagging along with my single-shot .410 a bird lit in a pine tree on a covey rise. He said shoot it out of the tree, and I threw a rock at it and then missed it flying off. He said I should of taken the limb shot, but he was glad I didn't.
One thing needs to be clear in this discussion. Judging something that happened in another, different time by today's standards is stupid. An old lady named Barber owned the old public pool in my hometown. Her father back in the '30s, 40's and early 50's charged admission to swim there. I swam a lot there as a kid.
He had a "whites only" policy which was the community standard back then. He could not have run the business any other way.
Anyhow, when his daughter died she had no heirs and left the pool in her Will to the city. The city opened a park and called it by its old name Barber Pool Park.
After a few years, times had changed and activists made a big deal out of having a park named for a 'racist'. Naturally, the city renamed the park for some black hollywood actor who didn't even grow up here. The point is the city applied current racial attitudes to something that was perfectly normal for an earlier time.
I drew a great number of similar Last Will and Testaments for old ladies after that. Some wanted to donate property to the city. I never drew another Will that made a public donation without it having a reversion clause in it to make the property go back to the testator's heirs in the event the city changed the name or used it for any purpose other than what was specified in the Will.
There's a city park and a school here in town named after my family. I sometimes wonder how long that will last...Geo
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Mr. George I get your point...Sorry but I don't agree with it being normal practice of the day.
I didn't think I did near as much judging as they did justifying.
Until they pressed me.
Not much doubt in my mind when your grandfather told you to shoot that bird off the limb he was running a test on you...you passed.
He most likely knew you would.
I've ran similar tests on people I've taken fall turkey hunting with my dog some passed some failed.
Great story nothing braggadocios or unbelievable in it at all.
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Skill with a shotgun---"always shoot 'em on the wing"---is an affectation. Bringing meat home at another time was a necessity.
I lived in a fishing village of subsistence living. An orange in a stocking was a big treat at Christmas. Judging by today's values is wearisome.
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"Not much doubt in my mind when your grandfather told you to shoot that bird off the limb he was running a test on you...you passed.
He most likely knew you would."
Quite likely I was a better kid than I am the adult I grew up to be...Geo
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Quite likely I was a better kid than I am the adult I grew up to be...Geo
Prolly not one of us here that couldnt say the same thing. __________________________ I used to be such a sweet, sweet thing till they (the world) got ahold of me. Alice Cooper https://youtu.be/6oZfpb6ZZjc
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["Mr. George I get your point...Sorry but I don't agree with it being normal practice of the day."...hoJo]
Absolutely right. But not because the times weren't different. Anyone who has actually had a lot of experience hunting wild quail with bird dogs knows you never hardly get the chance to shoot one on the ground because you never see them.
With the set out quail most people are used to today, sure you can always see them on the ground because they do not know how to hide and they do not have the camouflage wild birds do.
Wild birds on the other hand have adapted by local evolution to match the local ground cover. That's why you might never find one lying on open forest floor without a dog. Think Woodcock.
In addition, while you might see a covey of wild birds cross the road while driving, you won't ever see them in the cover when the dogs are around. They blend in perfectly and they hide.
So, shooting wild birds on the ground didn't happen much because of lack of opportunity. I can remember only one occasion when I had the chance. I was dove hunting in a corn field the cows had been let in on and a covey fed out into the field and right past where I was standing.
When I moved they ran up a corn row and and I could have raked the whole covey. But it was Dove season and not Quail season...Geo
Of course I did learn something from my Grandfather's lesson, if that's what it was. If a bird is dumb enough to light in a tree next to me his feet most certainly are NOT on the ground!
Last edited by Geo. Newbern; 03/11/19 02:47 PM. Reason: added final par.
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I shot one quail off a tree limb once. I was actually rabbit hunting with beagles up a narrow bottom nestled between two hills with a creek on one side & carrying a muzzleloading 12ga. I was walking up the middle of the bottom & the dogs had been working the creek bank. bumped a covey of quail scattered out feeding & managed to get off a shot at the last one up. Felt sure I hit it & he went about 50 yds & lit on the limb on the creek back. Rest of the covey crossed the creek & went into the woods on the opposite which was extremely steep. I eased in toward that one on the limb, realizing if it went out the back side I would not have a shot, so feeling it was already hit, when I got in range I gave it a finisher.
I can only recall about one time I would have had the opportunity to have ground sluiced any quail. Was coming through an area where some land clearing had been done & there was a big pile of brush which had been pushed up. There were still quite a few standing trees which had not yet been cleared but was fairly open around them. This covey ran from among the standing trees toward the brush pile & entered it. I got my gun at ready & approached the pile, but I "Heard" the wingbeats as they went out the other side, but never got high enough off the ground for me to even see them, much less shoot.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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You guys are, of course, thinking of SE bobwhites. In the Southwest, gambles are seen on the ground running like rats far more than they are seen in the air. I don't know if anyone ground sluices them or not, but I didn't when I lived there.
In Iowa, there was a tradition of shooting pheasants with .22s (usually along roads or tractor paths). I don't know if that is still legal and I have never even seen anyone doing it, but back in the 90s they tried to rescind that law and caught holy hell for it. By now, I imagine it is probably not legal as all the folks that did it, are now almost certainly passed.
The same is true of grouse hunting in Minnesota. .22s were commonly used even in my childhood years, and I met a number of people, mostly kids, that hunted that way. And interestingly, they often had a bird in hand, when I did not. It took some skills to ground shoot a grouse in the head with a .22 up there.
All of these were respected ways to kill a meal back in their day. Doubtful that anyone does it now.
_________ BrentD, (Professor - just for Stan) ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/qclHjMQ.jpg)
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One winter after a heavy snowfall, my buddy shot nine grouse with a .22, starting from the lowest bare branches, and I killed four the same way.
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When I moved they ran up a corn row and and I could have raked the whole covey. But it was Dove season and not Quail season...Geo
Of course I did learn something from my Grandfather's lesson, if that's what it was. If a bird is dumb enough to light in a tree next to me his feet most certainly are NOT on the ground!
If it had been quail season would you have shot them ? I think I said "test" not lesson. I'm sure your grandad being a quail hunter didn't shoot them off the limb.... I figure the "test" was to see if you have been paying attention when you were tagging along....George looks like you passed and didn't even know it. I took these two lawyers fall hunting with my turkey dog a few times on one hunt the dog and made the flush right before dark. Next morning found us walking up a fairly steep ridge in the dark with my dog on lead...I was about 20 or 30 yards up the hill from them. That day I was hunting with my Purdey hammer 10 ga. It was getting light before we reached the crest...I spotted a turkey sitting in tree directly over head. I stopped took the Purdey off my shoulder all the while watching the lawyers out of the corner of my eye. I took aim on the turkey...then I shouldered my gun and proceeded on up the side of the ridge. When the two lawyers reached the spot under the turkey they stopped and looked up at it....they didn't shoot either. I stood and waited on them to walk up to us....I asked "how come you fellers didn't shoot that turkey ?" Their reply was "how come you didn't shoot the turkey ?".... "I didn't want to shoot it out of a tree." It was a test they both passed...they most likely never knew it was a test.
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["If it had been quail season would you have shot them?" jOe]
Nah, but it wasn't during the great depression either...Geo
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People that lived out in the county never knew there was a great depression.
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People that lived out in the county never knew there was a great depression. Bullshit. https://historymatters.appstate.edu/site...nreivew_000.pdf SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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That's some nasty talking there Stanley...
In case you didn't know the south was in depression since the cival war.
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You underestimate the intelligence of your audience. You initially meant that the rural Southerners got by well during the Depression because of their resourcefulness. Now you spin that in an attempt to make them believe you meant that the rural Southerners never knew about the depression because they were in a depression ever since 1865. You may be that dumb ....... we aren't.
And, just for the record, there was nothing "civil about the war of 1861 - 1865. Sherman's "March to the Sea" didn't come through Tennessee. Hard for you to comprehend something outside your backyard, ain't it?
SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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I love it when you call me "dumb"....
One thing I do know is I'm smart enough not to bragg about my granpapy shooting a covey of quail on the ground.
And if I wasn't that smart I'd sure be smart enough not to attack someone because they didn't agree with me.
Once you've made a total fool of yourself won't do much good to call on "we".
Heres some free advice try and let it go...
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I love it when you call me "dumb"....
And if I wasn't that smart I'd sure be smart enough not to attack someone because they didn't agree with me.
BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! When exactly have not attacked someone who did not agree with you? You have over 13,000 posts doing just that. Take a long look in the mirror(if you can stand what you see) Frankie b0y.
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Sidelock
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Good morning Sweet pea...
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I'm more like your huckleberry hOney...
Ps...I don't click any links you post.
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I'm more like your huckleberry hOney...
Ps...I don't click any links you post. Nah, you remind more of a dog turd stuck on my shoe.
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What a coincidence.
You kinda remind me of a buddies bird dOg that liked to roll in fresh cow patties....
You know he could never tell us why being he was a dOg...
Maybe you can explain your love for the smell.
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Sidelock
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brer rabbit, he jes go on, ah fussin an ah fussin...
tar baby, he jes sat on dat log...an he dont say nuttin...
keep it simple and keep it safe...
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Sidelock
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What a coincidence.
You kinda remind me of a buddies bird dOg that liked to roll in fresh cow patties....
You know he could never tell us why being he was a dOg...
Maybe you can explain your love for the smell. Funny but I know of no one who loves your stench Frankie b0y.
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You know dOgs are smarter than most people they don't generally do things for no reason.
Smells that are offensive to us are often time not offensive to them...just take the smell of a skunk I don't want it directly on me...but it doesn't really bother me too much.
I often wondered if the bird dog rolled in cow patties because of a skin condition that it helped or maybe it helped his hAir.
eYe bet that's what it is with you...you likes to rub it in your long hAir'a.
Ever saw a hunting dog roll on the ground where a dead carcass was ?
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I recall, once, quite a few pheasant seasons ago, when there were 5 of us, my neighbor and his two teen-agers (both passing the hunter safety courses MI requires today) and my neighbor's doctor- we had 3 large farms connected by fencerows- all of that area ours to hunt--and my Lab Dixie, and my neighbor's Lab Lady- great october Sat- little cloudy, slight breeze.
Five hunters, all legal, limit of 2 roosters daily-- equals 10 birds total for the day--
Long story short-- The doctor shot 6 birds, before any of us could get in range-- When I asked him about stopping after the first clean kill- and letting Steve's boys get a crack at their first rooster pheasant-- he brushed me off- saying some akin to: "Hell, they'll get plenty of chances when they get older-- I carried my gun unloaded for the rest of that long-long day afield-- Never invited him to hunt with us again.
The late Paul. A. Curtis said it best: "The field is the touchstone of the man".. RWTF
Last edited by Run With The Fox; 03/12/19 09:45 AM.
"The field is the touchstone of the man"..
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William Tecumseh Sherman set the mold for later villains in wartime: Hitler, Himmler, Stalin, Tojo, Chairman Mao-- No war has any degree of civility in its battle plan-- The "War of Northern Aggression" left scars upon our land, whether North of South of the Mason-Dixon line, that still exist today-- RWTF
"The field is the touchstone of the man"..
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You know dOgs are smarter than most people they don't generally do things for no reason.
Smells that are offensive to us are often time not offensive to them...just take the smell of a skunk I don't want it directly on me...but it doesn't really bother me too much.
I often wondered if the bird dog rolled in cow patties because of a skin condition that it helped or maybe it helped his hAir.
eYe bet that's what it is with you...you likes to rub it in your long hAir'a.
Ever saw a hunting dog roll on the ground where a dead carcass was ?
I would not place more than you can afford to loose on that bet Frankie b0y.....the one that smells foul is you sunshine.
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Skill with a shotgun---"always shoot 'em on the wing"---is an affectation. Bringing meat home at another time was a necessity.
I lived in a fishing village of subsistence living. An orange in a stocking was a big treat at Christmas. Judging by today's values is wearisome. I noticed King's post a few pages back, before this thread turned into a cat-callin' contest. I think I agree to some extent that wing shooting is an affection. It, in my mind, is the difference between an outdoorsman and a sportsman. If I'm just after meat I know a better way to get it than wingshooting. Back in the day Stan's grandfather made his "big shoot", there were countrymen who needed and used the birds they killed. They were probably better outdoorsmen than we'll ever be. To my mind the sportsman of that time and the sporting ethic of the time which we honor today (even if often in the breach) was a city thing. My grandfather lived through the same depression the countrymen did but he was a town living druggist and his personal bird hunting ethic was probably guided by the sporting literature of the day rather than the need to acquire supper...Geo
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If you were after meat, you wouldn't waste shotgun shells on quail at all. You would trap them. Of course, that is not legal today, and it suffices to say what meat is only a byproduct of modern hunting, not the sole motivation for it.
_________ BrentD, (Professor - just for Stan)
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William Tecumseh Sherman set the mold for later villains in wartime: Hitler, Himmler, Stalin, Tojo, Chairman Mao-- No war has any degree of civility in its battle plan-- The "War of Northern Aggression" left scars upon our land, whether North of South of the Mason-Dixon line, that still exist today-- RWTF Sounds much like the "War of Southern Stupidity". Let's not go there either.
_________ BrentD, (Professor - just for Stan)
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Skill with a shotgun---"always shoot 'em on the wing"---is an affectation. Bringing meat home at another time was a necessity.
I lived in a fishing village of subsistence living. An orange in a stocking was a big treat at Christmas. Judging by today's values is wearisome. I noticed King's post a few pages back, before this thread turned into a cat-callin' contest. I think I agree to some extent that wing shooting is an affection. It, in my mind, is the difference between an outdoorsman and a sportsman. If I'm just after meat I know a better way to get it than wingshooting. Back in the day Stan's grandfather made his "big shoot", there were countrymen who needed and used the birds they killed. They were probably better outdoorsmen than we'll ever be. To my mind the sportsman of that time and the sporting ethic of the time which we honor today (even if often in the breach) was a city thing. My grandfather lived through the same depression the countrymen did but he was a town living druggist and his personal bird hunting ethic was probably guided by the sporting literature of the day rather than the need to acquire supper...Geo Take your well reasoned and gentlemanly post out of here, Geo. Us rednecks are ground sluicing birds and fighting the Civil War. William Tecumseh Sherman set the mold for later villains in wartime: Hitler, Himmler, Stalin, Tojo, Chairman Mao-- No war has any degree of civility in its battle plan-- The "War of Northern Aggression" left scars upon our land, whether North of South of the Mason-Dixon line, that still exist today-- RWTF Vox populi, vox humbug. ____________________________ I can make this march, and I will make Georgia howl. William Tecumseh Sherman
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If you were after meat, you wouldn't waste shotgun shells on quail at all. You would trap them. Of course, that is not legal today, and it suffices to say what meat is only a byproduct of modern hunting, not the sole motivation for it.
We finally agree on something.
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If you were after meat, you wouldn't waste shotgun shells on quail at all. You would trap them. Of course, that is not legal today, and it suffices to say what meat is only a byproduct of modern hunting, not the sole motivation for it.
We finally agree on something. You will get over it.
_________ BrentD, (Professor - just for Stan)
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Sounds much like the "War of Southern Stupidity". Let's not go there either. I'll Go there. The "South" was not "Stupid" enough to "Start" the war. The lives of some 600,00-800,000 Americans lost lay Squarely on the Shoulders of ole "Honest  Abe Lincoln. Had he followed the Constitution which he Swore to uphold, there would have been no war.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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William Tecumseh Sherman set the mold for later villains in wartime: Hitler, Himmler, Stalin, Tojo, Chairman Mao-- No war has any degree of civility in its battle plan-- The "War of Northern Aggression" left scars upon our land, whether North of South of the Mason-Dixon line, that still exist today-- RWTF Sounds much like the "War of Southern Stupidity". Let's not go there either. I still say that if James Watt had been an American, we'd have freed the slaves twenty years before the War Between the States due to obsolescence. But he wasn't and the southern economy was still dependent upon slave labor. Southern secession was the result of northern insistence upon the federal 'right' to dictate abolition to the south. If the south had not seceded and fought an ill fated war over the right to withdraw, the southern economy would still have collapsed for 50 years due to the loss of labor. Your knowledge of history may be better than my own...Geo See lonesome, I can re-fight the civil war with the rest of'em.
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See lonesome, I can re-fight the civil war with the rest of'em.
Lucky for the Brits the EU doesnt have an army. Bloody secessionists. Hows that coming along, King? (the eu army) (lets see if a world war breaks out) ___________________________ I cant decide who the bigger idiot is, Macron or Trudeau.
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I'd be curious to know what part of the Constitution you think Lincoln, our greatest President, didn't follow? I suppose you will make some sort of 10th Amendment argument? (I will grant you that his suspension of the writ of habeous corpus during the Civil War was constitutionally suspect).
Nothing the government gives you is free.
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What do you say we stick with upland bird hunting and leave the Civil War to history?
Personally, I like hunting upland birds anywhere they are found.
_________ BrentD, (Professor - just for Stan)
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I am a southerner by birth and a Georgian by the grace of God, but refighting the civil war is silly. We lost and that was best in the long run for all Americans. The only flag I ever saluted was the Stars and Stripes...Geo
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He started it! Hahaha JK. I'd much rather talk about guns, birds, dogs, etc.
Nothing the government gives you is free.
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many southerners resisted invasion by federal armies to defend freedom and state sovereignty...
keep it simple and keep it safe...
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many southerners resisted invasion by federal armies to defend freedom and state sovereignty... Ed, Give it a rest!
_________ BrentD, (Professor - just for Stan)
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The war between the states started in Kansas long before the Battle of Fort Sumter April 1213, 1861, and no state as a % of the male population contributed more Union soldiers. "Bloody Kansas" http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part4/4p2952.htmlThe killing of John Brown's son in the 1856 Pottawatomie Massacre got him started https://www.kshs.org/kansapedia/john-brown/11731 But the terrible war ended like this for many, and maybe we can let them rest in peace Constant Mayer - "Recognition North and South" 
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ole john brown was a religious fanatic, who became a homicidal maniac...he was given a fair trial and executed in 1859...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brown_(abolitionist)
federal armies did not invade sovereign states until 1861...
Last edited by ed good; 03/12/19 04:37 PM.
keep it simple and keep it safe...
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ole john brown was a religious fanatic, who became a homicidal maniac...he was given a fair trial and executed in 1859...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brown_(abolitionist)
What is it with this Brown clan??? _______________________ Bunch of trouble makers, eh.
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I am a southerner by birth and a Georgian by the grace of God, but refighting the civil war is silly. We lost and that was best in the long run for all Americans. The only flag I ever saluted was the Stars and Stripes...Geo About like an illegal being born here and being a US Citizen....Born in the south does not a Southerner make. That part about being best in the long run is pretty far from the truth....if the South had won we wouldn't be in the turmoil our country is in now. If Lincoln had lived long enough to deport the slaves as he planned then I'd say he was the greatest President ever.
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Browns are sept of clan Lamont.
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Browns are sept of clan Lamont. Small world, King. We are related through marriage. One of my sisters married a feller from Scotland. He's part of your clan. He tried stabbing me one Thanksgiving. In his defense I was riding him pretty hard aboot his skirt. He's weird like you, doesn't drink, smoke or play golf. _______________________ Git tee fook!
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I'd be curious to know what part of the Constitution you think Lincoln, our greatest President, didn't follow? I suppose you will make some sort of 10th Amendment argument? (I will grant you that his suspension of the writ of habeous corpus during the Civil War was constitutionally suspect). Let me answer that question with a question, WHAT part of the constitution Did Lincoln follow. I can give you the answer real quick ________. (Them's Blanks). One of his major unconstitutional was Ordering 75,000 troops to invade the South. He Wiggled around the fact that according to to the constitution only Congress could declare war by declaring a "Police Action" but he did not have constitutional authority even for that. Few people are aware that "Neither Side" ever declared war. As to leaving it to History, history was written by the North, who has lied to us for well over 150 years about all the "Facts" of that war. Miller Camp Comander, Camp 72, Son's of Confederate Veterans, TN Division, Starnes Brigade. Proud G-Grandson of two gentlemen who wore the Gray, one in the 45th TN infantry, the other in the Starne/McLemore 4th TN Volunteer Cavalry. Neither of these men Fought For Slavery, they fought to defend their homes & family from "Foreign Invaders".
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Neither of these men Fought For Slavery, they fought to defend their homes & family from "Foreign Invaders". Same with these five of my ancestors, four of whom were brothers.  SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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The Militia Act of 1792 gave Lincoln the power to raise troops to put down insurrections. Secession was unconstitutional and there was no legitimate sovereign nation upon which to declare war.
And for those of you who think the war was about states rights, I would encourage you to read the secession statements by the States of Mississippi, Texas and others.
I recognize I will never convince you, just as you will not convince me. So I'm done arguing this one.
Nothing the government gives you is free.
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Too many have drunk the koolaid and believe secession was illegal. There was nothing in the Constitution banning, or making illegal, secession by any state, until 1869. The states that ratified the Constitution would never have done so had there been any wording in it to the effect that a state, once admitted to Union, could never exit it. They had just fought a war against tyranny, and absolute power of a centralized government was too fresh in their minds to have ever agreed to a document that would take the power to secede from a corrupt or overpowering government away from the states. No state would have ever agreed to that when the constitution was ratified. Therefore, it wasn't in there. If it had been, there would have been no reason to put it there in 1869. There was a near secession by New England states over the War of 1812. The North did not want to lose the economic base of the South (cotton and rice) for foreign trade, and used illegal military force to prevent it.
SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Well Said Stan.
When Lincoln said "That Government of the People, By the People & For the People Shall Not Perish From the Land" that was the Biggest "LIE" that ever passed through two lips, with the possible exception of when the Serpent told Eve "Thou Shalt Not surely Die"
Lincoln did more than any other President we have ever had to take the Government Away from "The People" & put it in the hands of a despotic Central Government. His so-called Emancipation Proclamation was a total Farce & was nothing but a Military & Political Tactic. M Militarily it was a total Flop, Politically it helped get him re-elected & subsequently Assassinated.
One might assume that all those who think the South had no right to remove themselves from the United States Government are still flying & honoring the Union Jack. Obviously, they are firmly of the opinion that no people have the right to change who Governs them.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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the second amendment to the federal constitution, refers to ..."the security of a free state"...
the concept that the states were free and therefore sovereign was established in the federal constitution in 1791...
the sanctity of the freedom of the states was honored by all presidents, until a. lincoln became president by default, in a four way split election...shortly after taking office, lincoln raised armies and invaded several sovereign states, including, missouri, kentucky, maryland, and of course, virginia...thus, plunging the nation into civil war...
keep it simple and keep it safe...
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what has always puzzled me, is why did so many northern men and boys answer lincoln's call in 1861? why was preserving the federal union all that important to them at that time?
keep it simple and keep it safe...
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what has always puzzled me, is why did so many northern men and boys answer lincoln's call in 1861? why was preserving the federal union all that important to them at that time? They believed the opposite of whatever bullshit you rebs are pedaling. __________________________ You lost. Accept the situation.
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roads... well, wish it were that simple, but it aint...when a foreign army invades your world and threatens everything and everyone that you hold dear, it is no longer about politics...its about survival...
keep it simple and keep it safe...
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what has always puzzled me, is why did so many northern men and boys answer lincoln's call in 1861? why was preserving the federal union all that important to them at that time? The north had almost an endless supply of soldiers getting off the boats at Ellis Island...I don't think they had any other choice.
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I am a southerner by birth and a Georgian by the grace of God, but refighting the civil war is silly. We lost and that was best in the long run for all Americans. The only flag I ever saluted was the Stars and Stripes...Geo About like an illegal being born here and being a US Citizen....Born in the south does not a Southerner make. That part about being best in the long run is pretty far from the truth....if the South had won we wouldn't be in the turmoil our country is in now. If Lincoln had lived long enough to deport the slaves as he planned then I'd say he was the greatest President ever. Archived.
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What does any of this racist talk and ad hominem attacks have to do with 2 inch guns????
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Men signed up by states. Served with fellows from the same state and fought as state units. Ever look at how both armies were composed. It was by state units not a national army. A lot if not the majority fought for their state as much as anything early in the war. Lee was offered command of the Union army but declined because he knew Virginia was not going to remain in the union. He was more loyal to his state than what many felt was a broken Federal system. Some feel that way today. Big states trying to dictate rule and law everywhere.
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William Tecumseh Sherman set the mold for later villains in wartime: Hitler, Himmler, Stalin, Tojo, Chairman Mao-- No war has any degree of civility in its battle plan-- The "War of Northern Aggression" left scars upon our land, whether North of South of the Mason-Dixon line, that still exist today-- RWTF Sounds much like the "War of Southern Stupidity". Let's not go there either. I only came into this discussion after my Ancestors were Called Stupid, By a "STUPID" individual. When he tried to leave HIS statement as Fact & then said Let's Not Go There, that outright LIE could simply not be left unchallenged. People who don't want a thread side-tracked need to STOP throwing Slurs at others. Just for the record, Sherman was not the only Mold-Maker for Hitler & his likes. Hitler was a Devoted Fan of ole Abe Lincoln & studied him seriously.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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William Tecumseh Sherman set the mold for later villains in wartime: Hitler, Himmler, Stalin, Tojo, Chairman Mao-- No war has any degree of civility in its battle plan-- The "War of Northern Aggression" left scars upon our land, whether North of South of the Mason-Dixon line, that still exist today-- RWTF Sounds much like the "War of Southern Stupidity". Let's not go there either. I only came into this discussion after my Ancestors were Called Stupid, By a "STUPID" individual. When he tried to leave HIS statement as Fact & then said Let's Not Go There, that outright LIE could simply not be left unchallenged. People who don't want a thread side-tracked need to STOP throwing Slurs at others. Just for the record, Sherman was not the only Mold-Maker for Hitler & his likes. Hitler was a Devoted Fan of ole Abe Lincoln & studied him seriously. 2-piper, that started with RWTF's post. It's interesting how people react when responded to in kind.
_________ BrentD, (Professor - just for Stan)
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Fox made a totally True Statement, YOU made a Totally Prejudiced Statement by Calling all Southerners Stupid. That was not just a Stupid statement, it was, in fact, a totally "IGNORANT" statement to which I res[ponded, I did not respond to Fox's.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Just for the record, Sherman was not the only Mold-Maker for Hitler & his likes. Hitler was a Devoted Fan of ole Abe Lincoln & studied him seriously.
Howd that work out for him? ____________________________ If I owned Texas and Hell Id rent Texas and live in Hell. Phil Sheridan
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Fox made a totally True Statement, YOU made a Totally Prejudiced Statement by Calling all Southerners Stupid. That was not just a Stupid statement, it was, in fact, a totally "IGNORANT" statement to which I res[ponded, I did not respond to Fox's. Thanks for proving my point.
_________ BrentD, (Professor - just for Stan)
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Clear the air here, Brent. Were you implying, when you referred to your so-called "War of Southern Stupidity", that all Southerners who participated in it were stupid?
SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Fox made a totally True Statement, YOU made a Totally Prejudiced Statement by Calling all Southerners Stupid. That was not just a Stupid statement, it was, in fact, a totally "IGNORANT" statement to which I res[ponded, I did not respond to Fox's. Thanks for proving my point. You really cant help yourself, eh Brent. Like I said, a sitting duck and only you set yourself up to be that sitting duck.....this is a great example, name calling and branding southerners as stupid. What do you expect?.................and KaBOOM. Stans sitting duck.
Socialism is almost the worst.
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We're all stupid in different ways.
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Just for the record, Sherman was not the only Mold-Maker for Hitler & his likes. Hitler was a Devoted Fan of ole Abe Lincoln & studied him seriously.
Howd that work out for him? Pretty much like Lincoln as a matter of fact...Geo
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Fox made a totally True Statement, YOU made a Totally Prejudiced Statement by Calling all Southerners Stupid. That was not just a Stupid statement, it was, in fact, a totally "IGNORANT" statement to which I res[ponded, I did not respond to Fox's. Thanks for proving my point. You really cant help yourself, eh Brent. Like I said, a sitting duck and only you set yourself up to be that sitting duck.....this is a great example, name calling and branding southerners as stupid. What do you expect?.................and KaBOOM. Stans sitting duck. I don't plan on "shooting" at Brent, or taking him on in a debate over this. I just like to know where I stand with a man, for the future. If he answers with a clear yes or no, I intend to drop it. But, his reply will be "filed" for future reference. SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Just for the record, Sherman was not the only Mold-Maker for Hitler & his likes. Hitler was a Devoted Fan of ole Abe Lincoln & studied him seriously.
Howd that work out for him? Pretty much like Lincoln as a matter of fact...Geo Touche. _________________________ In different ways, we are all stupid. Brown, King
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Clear the air here, Brent. Were you implying, when you referred to your so-called "War of Southern Stupidity", that all Southerners who participated in it were stupid?
SRH Not at all. There are lots of stupid wars that are started by stupid people but other, not so stupid, people have to die in them. There is a pretty good case to say that the Vietnam war was stupid. I don't consider Vietnam vets to be stupid at all. One is an especially smart guy and best friend and shooting partner of mine. But the war? Maybe so. I don't think much of Iraq 1.0 and I damn sure don't think Iraq 2.0 was a smart war. In fact quite the opposite. And I have not a single hard feeling for the people that have fought in them, died in them, been wounded or came home unscathed from them. I do, however, hold a few politicians in great contempt for them and I consider Iraq 2.0 especially stupid. I hope that doesn't offend anyone but you are asking about this topic, so there it is. But to this specific war, the fact it that the title "The War of Northern Aggression" whether you think it a fitting proper name or not, is offensive to many and it is INTENDED to be offensive. And yet when someone responds to it in kind, suddenly the response, but not the initial declaration is singled out as a travesty and everyone's panties get knotted. Some much more than others. Exactly WHY people feel the need to refight this war (and I do think it was a STUPID war, but that's my opinion), I do not know. It might be a sign of stupidity, now that I think about it. I suspect General Robert E. Lee might have agreed with me had we been able to discuss this in private back in the day. In the meantime, I know my father did not fight in it. My grandfathers did not fight in it. My GREAT grandfathers did not fight in it. My GREAT, GREAT grandfathers potentially could have fought in it, but I have no idea of who they were and I'm doubtful most, if any of them, were on this continent at that time. But mostly, I think that war has been over for a long time. And I'm damn sure it is best that it stays that way. I'm also damn sure, it has nothing to do with the subject of this thread, the topic of this forum, or anything remotely connected to topics that are relevant to this thread or forum. And there you have it Stan. I hope that clears the air. At least for you.
_________ BrentD, (Professor - just for Stan)
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Started by politicians over the issue of agrarian economics. Fought by men for anything but that. The north won by out spending the south. Not by out fighting the south.
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Brent;
I can't speak for Stan, but will speak for "ME".
There are parts of this last post I agree with & parts I disagree with.
I do agree the war was "Stupid", I just happen to disagree with which side played the Stupid part.
I also disagree with "I think that war has been over for a long time". That war has never ended & it's not all on the part of the South.
Just recently the City of Memphis TN sold two city parks for $1,000 each. I do not personally know the value of these parks but suspect they ran into the $Millions". They sold them on the Sly, with no input from the public of that city, even though they were public property. Why were they Sold? One of them was the burying place of N B Forrest & his Wife Mary & also had a statue of Forrest on it. TN State Law prohibits a Municipality from disturbing a historical monument. It was sold to a "Private" buyer & within a week under cover of darkness & with City Police protection the statue was removed. Plans are underway for Exhuming & removing the bodies of Forrest & his wife. Forrest descendants along with the SCV now has filed a lawsuit against the city to the tune of 3 Million Dollars So you may say this is, in fact, a Southern City. Totally Correct, but it is the influence of more than 1150 years of Northern Lies concerning the South which brought this on.
So you may say, Forrest was a slave trader. True, but during his time of that profession it was both Legal & Constitutional. If Both men's life & statements are studied it becomes quite clear Nathan Bedford Forrest, actually held the Black Race at a higher level & in more Esteem for them, than Did Abraham Lincoln. Lincoln flatly stated that Black People were inferior to Whites, & could never live as equals in the same nation with whites, he simply wanted them deported from the USA.
Forrest told a Black Organization shortly after the war, which was more or less a for-runner of the NAACP that they could be Whatever they wanted to be, Doctors, Lawers or any other occupation they chose & Which they "Were Willing to Work For".
You won't read that in any School History book, too much actual history has been Hidden away, all for the p[urpose of Justifying Lincolns Unconstitutional invasion of the South, in the name of Slavery. Lincoln did not free a single slave he had any authority to free. He, of course, had no authority to free those which he stated to be free in his Emancipation Proclamation.
In fact, he stated i9n that proclamation he had no authority to free slaves in the USA, Except in those states in Rebellion. He, in fact, was playing both sides of the fence. Whether he recognized those states as a part of the USA or as another Nation, he had no authority Either Way.
I do totally agree this has nothing to do with 2" chambered guns. RWTF did throw out a little comment concerning Sherman & other Villians which I did not respond to. I give "YOU" full credit for sidetracking this thread, From your comment about the Stupidity of the South, it's obvious the War has not ended for you either.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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We're all stupid in different ways. King, are you thinking of the stupidity of supporting Liberal Left Democrat anti-gunners and gun control on a firearms forum? It's hardly mean-spirited to note that I'm an Obama supporter. I'm proud of it, apparent here as long as he's been around. He's anti-gun but has kept his legislative gun in his holster to position his party for '16. C'mon, mc, I'm just like you, admiring some presidents, less so others, just as I do our prime ministers. Some members are tired of my praising Obama as one who will go down in history as one of the best. What's malicious in that? Just an opinion on an international board, no better than yours. My post wasn't about taking away rights, Jim. Rights are bumping against other rights everywhere i.e. voter rights, civil rights, women rights, gun rights, environmental rights, worker rights, worship rights etc.
I don't think of you as a lesser person or enemy because you believe the 2nd is a sacred and inviolable right under some natural law. I don't agree. Neither do courts that arbitrate differently on that inviolability from time to time.
Democracies make choices. Americans accept mass murder to defend an individual right to bear arms in the name of personal freedom.
A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.
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My recolection is fuzzy here, but im quite certain Sherman rid himself of the "emancipated" contraband, tagging along, by removing bridge stucture at some river. Want more proof of yankee hypocrisy? Read the transcipts of the Lincoln-Douglas debates. Lincolns white supremacy is quite obvious. I had to move from Ohio to South Carolina to find out.
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war is man's ultimate act of insanity...civil war, is worse...it is man's ultimate act of insane stupidity...
keep it simple and keep it safe...
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When a man reaches the end of the rope not many choices left Ed...
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The war of 1861-1865 was "NOT" a Civil War, even though many called it such even at the time. This was the result of a misunderstanding of the term. A Civil War is defined as a war in which a faction within a nation tries to take over the government of that nation. The Confederate States of America did not try to take over the Government of the United States of America. They just removed themselves from it & established a New Government, with their own constitution. Essentially the Same thing the colonies had done when they declared their Independence from England. Funny folks will brag about their ancestors fighting in the revolution & accuse Southerners of being Treasonists.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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It seriously pisses me of that I was fed revisionist bullshit when growing up in Ohio. Perhaps that explains why I feel so comfortable where it all began.
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The war of 1861-1865 was "NOT" a Civil War, even though many called it such even at the time. This was the result of a misunderstanding of the term. A Civil War is defined as a war in which a faction within a nation tries to take over the government of that nation. The Confederate States of America did not try to take over the Government of the United States of America. They just removed themselves from it & established a New Government, with their own constitution. Essentially the Same thing the colonies had done when they declared their Independence from England. Funny folks will brag about their ancestors fighting in the revolution & accuse Southerners of being Treasonists. Your logic is solid.
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king george did not "have" to send armies to invade the rebellious american colonies. they were no threat to the empire...president lincoln did not "have" to send armies to invade the rebellious southern states...they were no threat to the federal gubmint...
both george and abe were despots, who were personally threatened by those seeking freedom...they would not tolerate those who dared to challenge their insane desires for absolute power and authority...
thus, the first and second american revolutions were bloody civil wars, where friends, neighbors and families commenced killing each other...rather insane and stupid, don't you think?
Last edited by ed good; 03/13/19 07:58 PM.
keep it simple and keep it safe...
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Ed;
Read the definition of Civil War I posted. Neither of those wars were civil wars. The Colonies did not try to take over the English Government from King George, nor did the Confederacy try to take the US Government away from "King Abe".
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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The first confederacy lasted 8 years I believe and was a goat rope. Quebec was invited to join. Glad we dodged that bullet.
_______________________
Madison!
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what has always puzzled me, is why did so many northern men and boys answer lincoln's call in 1861? why was preserving the federal union all that important to them at that time? The north had almost an endless supply of soldiers getting off the boats at Ellis Island...I don't think they had any other choice. Well, if the endless supply of soldiers got off the boat at Ellis Island for the Civil War or War Between the States (pick one) it was almost 3 decades too late and a little early for the Spanish American War of 1898. Immigration facilities didn't open at Ellis until 1892.
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the boys of '61 were not fresh off any boat from europe...they were, for the most part, young men and boys born on the farms and and in the small towns that was the united states, at the time...most of them had never been more than 20 miles from home...
why then, were they so eager to volunteer, by the 100's of thousands to go off to war to kill their fellow countrymen?
keep it simple and keep it safe...
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why then, were they so eager to volunteer, by the 100's of thousands to go off to war to kill their fellow countrymen?
I don't know exactly why. What I do know from wars the boys in my country went off to fight is this. Economics. They were at home on the farm with three or four or more of them together on the home lot. he farm could not support all of them & they were living in poverty. They had to go into the big world sometime soon & the army gave them the opportunity of pay, food, housing, adventure, camaraderie & maybe a future. The biggest employer at the time, just sign up & the army looks after the rest of it, easy. They were fed a line by the recruiters & knew no different & good old Dad wanting to be shot of some of this fast maturing boisterous mob, encouraged them in what the whole community was led to believe was a good cause. In a lot of cases the ones who chose not to go were sent a white feather & that shame was never lived down. Could this apply there ? O.M
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In wartime there is a habit of naming the enemy in a way that they are dehumanized.
So a Reb is not a fellow countryman any more than a Gook, Jap, or Sand-unmentionable.
Why, hell boy, they's the enemy !
O.M
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There was a steady flow of immigrants fighting for the North not necessarily by choice in the cival war...
You want a blue ribbon lAw dog spOt for catching a technicality on the island ?
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My great-great grandfather came in from Belfast, through NYC, settled in Savannah, fought for the south and spent part of the war at a POW camp at Fort Delaware, Delaware. No award necessary, Sponge Frank Square Load. Just stating fact not fiction.
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I guess that kind a proves my point about imigrants being thrown into the cival war when they got here...
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