doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com No need to baby.

Well, since we just finished a few conversations about guns we really should pay close attention to the ammunition we feed them, and keep it on the lighter side, pressure, payload, and velocity wise, how �bout we talk about some you don�t have to?

My monster:



This is a 1968 vintage Pirandelli & Gasperini, 20 gauge, with 3� chambers. I�ve been shooting some trap with the gun, it is marked MOD and IMP MOD from the proofhouse, and the bores measure .620� in both tubes, with .022 choke in the right and .030 in the left.
It came with the recoil pad, and assorted white line spacers, which, I will keep on the gun in case they come back into fashion, perish that thought. It is bolted with double underbolts and a hidden top bolt, both seem to be well fitted. The top bolt is round, this is a machine made gun, after all. I guess they didn�t want the gun opening up at the shot. It actually weighs just over 6 1/2 lbs, I don�t believe petite ladies or youth gun was the thinking.
It is a clay crushing machine. I actually have to remind myself to let them get out a little bit. I know some are nauseous at the sight of a beaver tail and a pistol grip on a sub gauge, but, the combination works pretty dang good. Easy to hang on to, controllable to the point of automatic, and easy on the shoulder. A guy could do a lot worse.
The front wood wiggles around a bit more than I like. The auto safety is a bit balky. There is no cast in the stock, a plus for a southpaw. I like the look of bone pack colors much more than cyanide on an A&D, and the checkering and engraving are a notch above average.
It was left to me by a dear friend, who decided in 1968 that he needed a big 20 gauge. He also bought the Sears version of the Winchester 101 in 20 with the same length barrels, but 2 3/4 chambers. I didn�t get that gun, but, I�m pretty happy with this one. He never fired either gun, a shame. Both were new.
I think of him when I handle it. I literally won�t give a second thought to what ammunition I feed it this fall, when I load it up for pheasants, which, I have promised myself I am going to do with it. Some ammunition came with it, even a few boxes of 3� stuff. One was a load of 7 1/2, haven�t seen that one before.
I should mention that I really miss my friend. He was a good guy.

Best,
Ted

That's what my Cz bobwhite is for in 20. Strip the peanut butter finish off of the gun and wow what some wood!

I�ve had a few people suggest different things. Rasp off the beaver tail and the pistol grip, eliminate the white lines, strip finish, etc.

Don�t forget, this is pretty much a new gun. I�m in no hurry to change anything, today.



Best,
Ted

There is beauty in utility Ted, no question.

Absolutely! Maybe its my upbringing,but I'm a sucker for a working mans gun! Love it Ted!

I have some that fits the description, Ted. I'll begin with this one, much like yours. This is an Ithaca SKB 200E. It's a 20 ga. with 28" tubes, weighs 6 lbs. 6 oz., and the dutiful Ithaca Raybar front sight. I won it at auction about 10 years ago. It appeared to be in unfired condition when it arrived. White line spacers, too!! I'm going on memory, but I'm thinking it's choked IC right and MOD left. Wish it had double triggers like yours, but it is what it is. Works perfectly, and was carried on my first trip for Gambel's quail in AZ. Went two for three with it that morning. She'll digest anything I feed her. The wood in the butt is strange, not really attractive in the usual sense, but has a translucent look, with very subtle figuring.

Classic to many is a straight grip and splinter combo. Looks great and makes a gun look very sleek. Problem for me is I don�t shoot that combo well, especially with heavy loads. So I put on a slip on leather barrel protector which eliminates the splinter fire end completely.

If this combo works for you all the better. Form is allowed to follow function. What is the point of altering a gun which you shoot well into another shape just for looks? Worse, what if you no longer shoot it well. There are millions of splinter fore ends and straight grips out there. One more will not make much difference.

Ted,

If you alter the beaver-tail forearm to a splinter, you will probably wind up with a rather noticeable gap between the wood and barrels. I have done this in the past for clients on different makes of guns and it always happened.

Just my two cents worth.

Many of the older guns we now swoon over were, in their day, just utilitarian guns made for a great day outside!

Thanks for sharing photos of your Pirandelli & Gasperini, and the story with it.

Typical poser BS that is just soooo stoopid

Ted, that is a pretty nice looking gun just as it is. If it works for you as well as you say then butchering it would seem to serve little purpose other than to degrade the market value and decrease the utility of the gun.
BTW - white line spacers have never gone out of style. They are as elegant and refined as always.

Yeah.......... along with bell bottom britches, polyester leisure suits, and 8 track tape decks. Whatever rings your chimes.

SRH

Stan;
I will have to say that White Line spacers never went Out of Style with me. One very good reason, they never were "In Style" with me.

Stan,
Same concept it would seem. There are many who believe 6 1/2 lbs is too porky for a 20, and it may be on a pure field gun, I suppose. But, a gun that sees some clay use is OK at that weight.
I don�t care for single triggers either, Stan, but, a guy would be alright up here in the winter wearing a glove with that one.

Mr Flynn,
Good to see you posting, and, thank you for the gracious advice. I really have no intention of making any changes to the gun. People have notions, I suppose if I was ordering a new 20 from somebody, it would have a straight stock, splinter, no white line spacers, and 2 3/4� chambers. This was just some thinking out loud from members of my little gun club. I�m going to leave it as it came to me.
It may need a bit of service down the road a bit, and I�m not comfortable tightening up an Anson forearm. I�ll be in touch.

Dr. Sane,
I had no idea you were a card carrying member of the Roy Weatherby Society of Firearms Finishing, Decoration,and Bloody Mary Mixing. Ha ha! Don�t worry, no intention of eliminating the elegant and refined pieces of white plastic on the old girl�s wooden parts, but, only because everyone does that, and it would change the gun from how it was when it was gifted to me. WL Moore has two of these guns in stock, that have suffered the same treatment, like I said, everyone does that. When bell bottom jeans and disco music make a comeback, I�ll be ahead of the curve.

Since we are on a roll, another gun capable of eating it all, so to speak:



Uggy �Falcon� 3� 12. The whole 3� thingy is a bit overblown, or, was, anyway, and the only reason I can come up with for the use of the stuff is you got it for free. Well, I have a bunch of 3� crap that I got for free, and have yet to use any of it. I shan�t be feeding any of it to this gun, it is a bit light for that brand of foolishness.
This one had white line spacers AND spiffy golden like triggers. Yes, I eliminated them. I won it at auction for $410, shipped, and if you are hunting with me and I�m using it, either you are a clutz, your dog is an oaf, or both. Or,the boat we are in leaks.I would use steel in it if that becomes a real thing, but, not just because the chokes have been opened way up, but, because I don�t think I have enough years left to hurt it, and, I don�t care. Sometimes a tool, is just that, and I have enough junk that I have to worship.
We likely have a few guys here that would say their only gun is their Purdey, or their Woodward O/U, and they use it for everything, as that is what it is for. I end up in some places where something like that simply doesn�t belong, and I gotta believe they would come to that same conclusion if they tagged along.
My 2 1/2� guns, my really, really expensive guns, my delicate guns, my black powder proof guns, have mostly been moved on. That wasn�t planned, it is just the way it worked out. I hunted a lot with my Nitro Special 16 gauge last year, after I lucked into a bunch of non toxic shot for it, and hunted a federal WMA, that is all non toxic.
If you got �em, let�s see �em, just like Stan showed his.

Best,
Ted

Another Ithaca/SKB. Chrome bores, ugly finish, no white line spacer, no special treatment required! I have some nicer, but this one always travels well. Still the one I pick most often to hunt birds with.

I�ve never heard of Perandelli and Gasperini. Are they still in business, or existing under another name?

Well, I�m pretty sure the answer to both is no. The guns were imported by Richland, and it appears they were also sold around Europe. Richland was based in Blissfield, MI. They sold Italian doubles and Spanish doubles, then added some Italian O/Us. I think it was mostly Spanish doubles at the end. Seems like it ran 1960 or so, until the late 1970s.
Richland also did business in Italian replicas of single action guns, and muzzle loaders, and accessories for same.
The Italian gun is head and shoulders above quality of the Spanish offerings, from my limited sample experience. 12 and 20 gauge on the P&G guns, with the 20 being a 3� gun.

Best,
Ted

Same configuration as the B.C. Miroku guns.

Another for which I don't worry about pressures when buying shells. Italian San Georgio, 2 3/4" chambers, built 1971 (by Bernardelli, I am told), Kersten style cross bolt, 30" barrels, 7 lbs. 3 oz., Briley thin-wall S1 series chokes, flat/level rib. Easily shootable gun. I bought it, from a friend on this board years ago, to use in hammergun events. It has been High Hammergun at the Southern Fall Classic once or twice, and second other times. Had to get the sear and tumbler hardened on the left lock, after setting the trigger pull myself a couple times and having it "round off" after less than 100 trigger pulls. I farmed that out to Jim Kelly. It's right as rain now.

Plain Jane Wood, with a chip and blemish here and there, but a great knockabout hammergun. Doesn't know RST from Walmart Specials. Easy to use in the field............ because you won't be spending any time staring at the gun you will spot birds quicker.









SRH

Nice old Bernadelli, Stan. The Richland double from P&G is the one Francis Sell wrote about in the late 60's in Gun Digest promoting the 3" 20 gauge shell for waterfowling. He did pretty well in making his case.
JR

Only since I was in grade school and Roy was doing his traveling road show with the film of his African safari and the how wowie his rifles killed things. At every showing he gave away a 300WM (IIRC) and my little brother got to draw the winning ticket for the one we attended. Roy said something about who the winner better not be and got a good laugh. My Dad didn't win of course.
And BTW there is nothing contemporaneous or interrelated with white line spacers and the fashion/music $hit mentioned.

For me it's an AyA Matador. 12 gauge, 32" barrels, 3" chambers, ST, PG, BTFE. Weighs over 8 lbs. I've shot ducks and geese using 3" bismuth. Even shoot some late season doves with it. With the Winchester low recoil shells its soft shooting as can be. I'm sure it would handle about any shell I put in it.

You know, I've hunted elk with a 70's "classic" Weatherby Mark V Rifle out here for well over 20-years now, white-line spacers and all. (It was a used, relatively inexpensive left-hander 30-caliber Magnum when I need just exactly that). It clearly screams it's era when you see it but... recently (last few years) when other hunters see it on the trail or in the parking lots, they seem to be mildly reverent. It sure doesn't look like all the other guns I see out there (plastic, parkerized, etc.) When I do my part, it does it's part & the freezer stays full. I bead-blasted the finish so is isn't so shiny but otherwise...

John,
I have one of the last articles Francis E. Sell wrote pertaining to his thoughts on the 20 gauge for duck and goose hunting. It is in the 1977 Gun Digest, and is titled "The 20 Comes of Age". Although his own Richland 20 magnum makes appearances in several photos, he makes no mention of the make, and states he restocked it for himself. He appears to have moved on from Richland to Knight & Knight, a firm in Florida that imported and customized Bernardelli and Perazzi guns. He was very specific about bore dimensions, forcing cone lengths, and choke diameter and lengths, and an article from 1968 (and, my skeets gauge) shows that it was all the same specs when he was with Richland.


I often wonder if the steel shot requirements that came in around the same time broke his heart, as they made all the work he did irrelevant.

Dr. Sane,
In 1968, I could buy a gun with white line spacers, a polyester leasure suit, and bell bottom jeans.

Save buying used at the Salvation Army store, I can't buy any of those things, today. Not even a new gun with white line spacers. Plastic, elegant, or, refined white line spacers.

"Contemporaneous" sure seems to fit.

Best,
Ted

Ted, bell bottoms I'm 1968, I can believe.. Polyester leisure suits though didn't come in until circa 1975 and the disco craze. Sorry - I was there too. And by the way 60's-70's music is still in vogue. Believe it or not, Hendricks, The Who, ZZTop, Pink Floyd, Allman Brothers, The Band..... kids still listen to it.

Keep the white spacer...it's unique and will come back like long barrels did.

Last gun I bought prior to having to fill out a Form 4472 or whatever the number was under the new '68 Gun Control was a Richland 707 in 3" 20 gauge. I had read several articles by Sell & believe I may have that 77 one you mention. Mine had 28" barrels with M/F chokes. My Son still has it.

I did change the recoil pad on it. The one it came with was so soft firing it was about like holding it off your shoulder & giving it Jumping Room to Stomp you. It had 28" barrels choked M/F & weighed 6� lbs. After putting on the firmer pad I could shoot the full power 3" loads with reasonable comfort. Before that it had been a brute even with mild field loads. Killed my first Goose with it using a 1� oz load of #4, a young Blue.

Kids??? Shoot, I still listen to it everyday. I keep my Sirius XM Radio preset to the Classic Rewind and Classic Vinyl channels. Oh yeah, it's Hendrix, not Hendricks. "There's a red house over yonder, that's where my baby stays"...............

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Us5sfT17hws

SRH

Leisure suits go back to the 1930s. The poly version got popular in the 1970s, but were available prior.

There exists out there on the �net, a photo of Peter H. Johnson, the author of the Parker book, in a polka dot suit, circa 1961. It was quite snazzy I imagine, in the era. Horrific, today.

As I said, I�ve no desire to alter the gun. Or, buy a leisure suit, or bell bottom jeans, or, another gun with white line spacers.


Best,
Ted

Miller,
I would be willing to bet the recoil pad on mine would be too soft as well, were it not 50 years old.

It seems OK to me now. I tried 3� loads for a 20 a long time ago, and wondered what all the fuss was about. More recoil, worse patterns in my Ruger red label.

Best,
Ted

A �nudder:



2 3/4� chambers as built, in 1937. I bid $257 on this one, even though I didn�t have a good reason. The barrels had some furry rust, which our own (former?) Ken61 blued up. The rest of the gun appeared unused.

It mostly gets used with non toxic loads. The Nitros seem quite capable of handling off the shelf ammunition, even the promo junk. The barrels are the despised and useless 26�, with CYL and MOD chokes, that seem to work out just fine for Ruffed Grouse.

Best,
Ted

Leisure suits, the poly version, were loved by a good friend of mine. A surgeon, who just loved the light blue denim and the patch work denim. He went into thrift shops and bought them after they stopped being carried in the stores. His wife truly hated them.

Normally, I would not prod the bear, but she was such a pain in the ass as a wife of my hunting friend. I had a aunt who sewed clothes as a hobby and did alterations to make spending money. I commissioned four suits for him in his favorite colors. Gave them to him for Christmas one year. I don't think she spoke to me for two years. I considered that a second gift to myself. Those poly suits wore for ever. He was wearing them ten years later and she still hated them and me.

KyJ, I�ve got a similar friend I hunt with and shoot sporting with. He�s a great friend, but his wife is a pain in the ass.....really, just nasty. The good news,she hates me as much as I hate her. She dotes on my bud, constantly waiting on him , etc.......it�s quite repulsive, nauseating really. She dotes on him, but the minute he spends a nickel on himself, then all hell breaks loose. I�m not going to any more shoots with him if she�s going to be there, period. It�s just NOT worth all the BS and lip biting.

Buzz, your problem is not your buddy's wife its your buddy. He's blaming you for all the time he spends away from her clinging little self. She resents you for being his friend.JMHO...Geo

You might be right, Geo. Nevertheless, even her voice makes me cringe....like fingernails on a chalkboard. I�d be suicidal if I was stuck in a Hell with her and no way out, like my buddy is.

Here's a Fox (Utica) 12 with 2 3/4" chambers and when it snaps shut the whole thing rings in your hands. Feels real solid and if I run out of shells I think I could beat big things to death with it. I looked all over for a Fox 12 with modern type dimensions and this one is 1 5/8 x 2 1/2" and shoots well for me. When I received it I noticed that the muzzles weren't quite square and it must have been damaged and less than expertly repaired, so I got on the seller and he sent me back $75, so I have $675 in it. It ain't a show stopper, but it's a good gun.

Dave Erickson,

Looks like a nice old Fox gun to hunt with, nice deal also!

RGD/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

Stan, I was there. 1970 Atlanta Pop Festival July 4, 1970, the first big rock concert after Woodstock, and I heard Jimmie Hendrix play "Star Spangled Banner" at midnight, with the grass smoke from 500,000 people so thick you'd get a contact high just coming within 5 miles of the place. You can see me sitting about 50 rows back on the ground with a very hot girl (unfortunately with her brother). I remember Hendrix talking about the girl "with the purple panties" in the front row before he started playing... Alabama had a bad team that year.
--(Edit: Listening to the tape...he mentions the "girl with the purple underwear on" about 20 mins into the tape....not bad for a memory!!).
-- (Edit2: They did NOT include the Star Spangled Banner - a travesty and a sin that shaill be cast upon their heads and upon their progeny for generations!!!!!!!)
https://vimeo.com/155141123

We drove over from Tuscaloosa (In a VW Bus - without flowers on the door - I was known as the "fascist hippy" at the time) where I was studying after returning from Vietnam. The Allman Brothers (OMG my all time favorite band even if from Jaw Jah) were a warm-up band that night.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VxoXn-0Ezs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRDivUb5EeA
about 98 degrees 80 percent humidity during the day...we got our seats (our staked out ground) while the heat was still up.

Gregg Allman:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCUxJFtTFNk
JR

My old 12 ga. BSS has never been babied, at least not since I got it about 9-10 years ago. I have shot untold 3" steel duck loads through it, along with many, many 1 oz. and 1 1/8 oz. loads. It has really been shot a lot, and eventually the right barrel came off face by about .002"-.003". I shimmed the hook, which corrected it, and continue to feed it whatever makes itself available. 3 inch chambers, ejectors, 30" barrels, choked .018" and .018", 7 lbs. 11 oz.. It punched me into M class at the 2010 US Open in Tunica. It's a tough ol' nut, with a great single, non-selective trigger (that's the reason it is now choked the same in both barrels).

In a local beaver pond.



In the "Root-Wad Hole", L' Anguille river bottoms, Caldwell, AR



SRH

I remember when that one went off the hook, and you trying to figure out the best way to effect a repair.
Good to see it is still in service.

Best,
Ted

Stan you need to bring one over here when duck season starts and help me blast some woodies

Don�t have a pic but this gun�s toughness can be appreciated by its numbers. Only English gun I have ever handled that had 1 1/2 oz proofs.

Walter Betts, Birmingham
12 bore BLNE Waterfowl/Pigeon gun
30" barrels with sideclips, rounded pistol grip, double trigger
1 � oz proof, 3� chambers
Serial # 7xx Proofed 1934


R L
Bores .728 .727
Choke .009 .035
MWT .030 .033

LOP 15" to silver�s pad
DAC 1 7/16"
DAH 2 7/16"
Cast off ⅛� @ Heel
Wt 8� 1�

Kills ducks at 75 yards with 1 1/4 oz Rio Bismuth. Avoid steel because of tight choke.

Apparently Betts was a Birmingham maker that built for the trade in the UK but exported his own products under his name to Australia. I have seen two others and they were tough, well finished guns!

We just might do that this season, 67. One of my most valued friends farms at Barney. I could visit him, have a steak at your restaurant and we could have a go at some woodies one morning. Maybe Geo. could "jine" us.

Dr. P, that sounds like my kind of gun. Sure would like to see it someday. Old waterfowlers are special to me.

SRH

.
My bespoke Miroku, Montgomery Wards Western Field.
12 bore, 30", DT, low profile vent rib, 7 pounds.

Bob,
Did you order that gun new? Does it have 3� chambers? Circa 1978 I used my accumulated worm digging/cricket catching/snow shoveling money to become the proud owner of a new Remington 1100 from my local Woolworth�s store. The guy behind the counter let me look at all the guns in stock to find one with wood I liked.
It was a great day.
I remember a few doubles in the rack, but, my 17 year old brain was hyper focused on the task at hand, and mostly incoherent to anything else. I don�t recall if the doubles were new, or, used, but, I lean toward new because they had few used guns in the rack, and the doubles were lined up all in a row in the back.
Alas, the Remington was only around for about 5 years, at which point I sent it down the road to help fund a different gun, a used Ruger Red Label 20 gauge, another gun no longer around.
I do wish I knew what doubles had been in the rack that day. Best guess from here is Spanish guns.

Best,
Ted

Ted:

I worked in a Woolco (the big box segment of F.W. Woolworth) sporting goods department during that time period. The only doubles I ever saw were all low grade Spanish guns (Pride of Spain) and Brazilian (Boitos). Both were true clunkers.

There were Winchesters, Remingtons, Marlins, Mossbergs and some Rugers on the shelves as well, but none of them were doubles. The only used guns I ever saw were Mausers (Argentine and German).

Rem

Paul,
Thanks. I was sort of hoping that better quality guns might have been on the shelf, something like Bob�s Miroku, but, that probably didn�t fit the business plan at Woolworth any better than it did at, say, Target.
Target once had a gun department. A sad gun department. They did have ammunition, and occasionally blew the stuff out at good prices.

Best,
Ted

Ted,
I purchased the bespoke Miroku this year. 2 3/4" chambers.
Remarkable was the price, second only to the fact that I really break birds with this gun.
I bought it with the intention of sweating over it in the summer months,
using it in inclement weather in the winter months,
and having it as a loaner gun when the need arises.