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It was re-colored to make it more presentable as a wall hanger. For $727.25 plus shipping costs I would look for something else to adore my walls. French guns are unusual in sense that you want to buy them in USA instead of EU for simple reason that many if not most Americans don't want them making prices less than similar stuff from: Belgium, Germany, Italy, England, Austria....

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Many thanks for your observations Jager. I'm not a collector and I only buy guns I can shoot and prefer those to which I have a family connection in some way. (I do have some guns from Afghanistan which are wall hangers - but those are sort of "family" as well). You are welcome to purchase all the Belgian guns you want.

Last edited by Argo44; 06/22/18 12:57 PM.

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Argo, have you measured the chambers on any of those guns marked 75? If so, that should settle the question. I've never owned a
French gun marked anything longer than 70.

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No, I don't own them Larry and have never held them (I wish I did have that one in particular). You've owned a lot more French guns than I've held. But I reckon that if it is proof marked in Saint-Etienne and stamped "7.5" or "75," then there is no reason to doubt the veracity of the poinçon anymore than there is to doubt a "6.5"/"65" or "7"/"70." Here's another one from Naturabuy.Fr. Helima 12 bore with 75mm chambers.
https://www.naturabuy.fr/Vends-fusil-art...em-3404608.html

You'll note the 7.5/75's and higher fall into two categories:
-- they are 1880-1910 - mostly Damascus barrels
-- or are 10 bore or larger.

And again I'll refer to this pamphlet (2nd paragraph of text): "The shells which are the most available and useful for shotguns (shooting with lead shot) have a length of 65mm for 12 - 32 gauge; But one also finds on the market shells for these gauges with a length of from 70 to 90 mm...."




Last edited by Argo44; 06/23/18 01:49 PM.

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Just to illustrate the point, here is a Didier-Drevet barrel, 16 gauge which looks to be chambered for 8.0. It is double proofed in Saint-Etienne for PS powder so it is pre-1900 and it does not have the 1900 prize marked on DD barrels but rather 1855, the date of his original gold medal at the Paris Universelle. Barrel is Damascus. It is post 1889 since chamber is marked in cm. (The barrel oddly is not dated or I cant read it.


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Larry,
For a decade or so, my Darne Demonstrator gun was a 12 gauge R16, marked as 76mm chambers.

They are out there. Not common.

Gene, there is not a snowball's chance in he!! that gun has original case colors. Further, and not trying to rain on your parade, the gun reminds me of a brass era automobile, that someone chose to paint with candy tangerine metallic ureathane, with a clear coat.

Unfortunate, to my eyes.

Best,
Ted

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Thanks Ted. I came to that opinion as well -sort of looked like my Vietnam CIDG tiger stripes; And since I had doubts about shooting Black Powder, I passed on the gun. I have a relative to help ship one (1) to me (initially) so I don't really want to make a mistake.

Last edited by Argo44; 06/23/18 08:45 PM.

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Cyanide but shoot the hell out of it! You can case color it later

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Originally Posted By: Ted Schefelbein
Larry,
For a decade or so, my Darne Demonstrator gun was a 12 gauge R16, marked as 76mm chambers.

They are out there. Not common.

Gene, there is not a snowball's chance in he!! that gun has original case colors. Further, and not trying to rain on your parade, the gun reminds me of a brass era automobile, that someone chose to paint with candy tangerine metallic ureathane, with a clear coat.

Unfortunate, to my eyes.

Best,
Ted


Ted, there are obviously modern doubles chambered 3" in both 12 and 20ga. What I find interesting is Argo's page from Journee, referring to chambers as long as 90MM.

I have a more modern edition of Journee (1949) than his. And it obviously underwent significant editing and reorganization. My Section 5 is entitled "Choke Bored" and deals with the opposite end of the barrel from the chamber. Part of Section 4 refers to the chamber, which Journee specifies as being mostly made for shooting with 2 1/2" shells in 12-16-20ga, but 2 3/4" for 12ga pigeon guns. In the 2nd chapter, on cartridges, he warns against using 3" shells in 12's with 3" chambers and 2 3/4" shells in 16's and 20's with 2 3/4" chambers because of potentially dangerous pressures. But no mention of anything longer than 75MM.

I wonder if Journee wasn't getting a little "old fashioned" by the time of that later edition.

Last edited by L. Brown; 06/24/18 10:50 AM.
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Larry,
I have a couple of different chamber measure gauges, both came from Brownell's, if I am not mistaken. Geoffroy Gournet has warned me about using SAAMI spec tools on French guns, point blank telling me they are not reliable for determining chamber length.

Gene has found a bunch of old guns, marked with eye opening chamber lengths, under French proof laws in effect at the time they were built. I've not had the chance to observe anything but 6.5, 65, 70, and 76. I wish I had a buck for every French gun I've seen that had 65 stamped on the flats. Most of them are.

Having said that, if I came up with a cool French gun, of any sort, that was around 6 pounds, proofed in the first half of the last century, and marked 76, I sure as hell wouldn't run down to the 'mart and buy a 3" load to try the old girl out with. From where I stand today, light loads make sense, especially in an old French gun. I suppose you could add Italian, Spanish, Belgian, Prussian, or, whatever, but, those guns, in that age catagory, are pretty far out of my wheel house. But, it would make sense to be cautious with ammunition for them as well.

I've also come to a point where, for my own use, if I look at a French gun that is marked 65, and say, 18.2 on bore, I expect it to still be there before I part with MY cash for the gun. I have owned, and continue to own guns that are modified in that way, but, I'm done BUYING any more like that.

For what it is worth, the beautiful R16 12 magnum that was here all those years, never saw a 3" round.

Best,
Ted

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