doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com 1900 Manufrance - Are the Case Colors Original?

I've been looking for a 16 gauge Saint Etienne shotgun to replace the 1906 Didier-Drevet/Gerest-Berthon I gave to Daughter in Law. This gun has been for sale for awhile and I may be able to get it to the USA. Question is, are the case colors, which are so vivid, real? I've seen four or five examples of French guns from this era with similar colors - the "Dating early 20th Century French Shotguns" had pics of a few.
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=484199








Manufrance 16 gauge; 7.5 cm chambers (3"); 76cm barrels (30"); 2.7 kilos (6 lbs) ( believe he got his chamber measurements mixed up). Chamber is measured in cm thus between 1889 and 1912; It is after Manufacture des Arms added "Cycles" (1892); it is "only for black powder" so assume it is not safe for PT...pre-1900. I don't know much about shooting black powder guns but it looks pretty robust and wonder if low pressure modern 16 gauge shells could be safely shot from it. (I'd have it checked out if I decide to put in a bid).

https://www.naturabuy.fr/cal-16-75-remis...em-3143203.html

Fusils Juxtapos�s calibre 16
Marque : Saint Etienne
Etat de l'objet : d'occasion
D�tentes : Double d�tente
Chambrage : 76 mm
Arme pour droitier ou gaucher : Droitier
Longueur de crosse : 35cm
Poids : 2,700
Longueur de canon : 75 cm
Type de choke : Fixes
Chokage ou chokes fournis : 1/2, 3/4
Epreuve bille d'acier : Non
Garantie : non

tr�s beau fusil pour la collection ou pour la chasse . manufacture armes et cycles st etienne
tir avec uniquement cartouches poudre noire . chambre 75mm .
canon droit 16,6 mm , gauche 16,2 .
l�g�res traces sur bronzage en bout de canons .
canons damas fran�ais miroir , fermeture ferme arme en �tat de tir .

Colors look really bright for a gun that old, but possible. Not only is it not PT, but it isn't marked with any of the other powders used for smokeless proof (PJ,PS,PM,PR) before PT became the only one approved.

From looking at literally hundreds and hundreds of Manufrance guns, in France, over the last 6 years, I would guess no. There appears to be a healthy business in France redoing cyanide colours. I don't think this example is particularly recent (by that I mean in the last year or two) but I sure don't think it's from 1900.

colors look good...with no evidence of use or fading...if rest of gun is in similar condition, then colors could very well be original...which would be wonderful...also, this is not a high end gun, so consequently one would not usually put money into recoloring receiver, lever and other parts...looks legit to me...but, who really cares... it is a loverly, old well cared for piece in remarkable condition...that is what is really important to me...

clicked on link: advertisement says refurbished...nice job...how much is 650 euros american today?

Today Euro/$ is 1.16. 650 Euros today is $754. Shipping total would be around $500, possibly less. I likely will hold off. I've got another option. I do like the 7.5 cm chambers and the 30" barrels and even the 6 lb weight for a 16 gauge.

Would it be possible to shoot modern ammo in this gun? I believe it was mentioned that black powder puts a lot more initial pressure on a chamber than modern powders.

Modern ammo, yes, meaning being made now.
http://www.rstshells.com/

Walmart and other ammo NO.

Special modern ammo like RST is appropriate after
an examination by a vintage side by side smith

I DO NOT believe your 16 gauge chambers are 75mm in length.
http://www.rstshells.com/store/m/3-16-Gauge.aspx

http://www.shotguns.se/html/france.html

Mike

Hey Mike...we went through this on the "Dating 20th French Shotgun" line above. The old saw that the French only chambered guns for 6.5 (65mm) until after WWII has been decisively disproven. Here are a few more guns with 7.5 chambers contemporary to the Manufrance above...a dozen more with 7.0 cm chambers from that time period could be posted.

7.5 cm chamber: And this is interesting: An 1890-1912(?) 18.2 guage G.Peyron hammer gun chambered for 7.5 cm. Barrels by Marsot. "Double verrou,levier � volute" � platines "en avant" dont on trouve d�j� des mod�les dans des catalogues de 1884,mais il doit en exister de plus anciens car le "Levier � volute" existait d�ja sur des Lefaucheux



Didier Drevet barrel dated 1924; 1924 - 2?871 (or 1?871 ??); gun number 1080 for gun labeled "Excelsior." (per other ads for Excelsior's in the period which are chronologically serial numbered apparently). 10 gauge ( 19.2); chamber: 75mm (chambered in mm)(3"). mod�le EXCELSIOR .
http://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusil-juxtapose-Artisanal-Francais-occasion-Calibre-10-item-2824879.html



1885-1889 Manufance under lever hammer gun; 75mm chambers; 17.4 (14 gauge). Manufance was founded in 1885; the chamber is in mm thus 1889 or earlier.
http://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusil-juxtapose-...em-3799057.html



Pre 1885. Saint Etienne under lever hammer gun Martinier Collin; 19.6 (8 guage - ad says 10 gauge but I think 10 gauge is 19.2); 80mm chambers; (Martinier and Collin founded the company which was sold in 1885; Their assistants then bought the company which ultimately became Manufrance.);
http://www.naturabuy.fr/rare-fusil-juxtapose-chiens-calibre-10-saint-etienne-item-2376357.html



The ad says it is a Manufrance Ideal Jones underlever hammer gun tested for PP Pyroxillees powder; SN 19416; Cal 10; "80 mm chambers." Barrels are �Ideal� Hercule 3 Palmes demi-bloc. The ad claims that it was only available by special order overseen by the director of the workshop himself and would date from the period 1906-1914. In subsequent queries the seller mentions it was stamped Manufacture d'Armes et Cycles de Saint- Etienne. He blurs some pictures and cuts others off - Barrel flats can't be read, etc). (In fact chambers are 7.5 - see photo)
http://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusil-Cal-10-Manufacture-Armes-Cycles-Saint-Etienne-item-2206991.html



And my favorite that I regret I missed: 75 mm chambers (pre-1889)....barrel 76cm.
https://www.rouillac.com/fr/lot-233-79107-fusil_chasse_percussion_centrale_chiens?p=9
FUSIL DE CHASSE � percussion centrale, chiens ext�rieurs, deux coups, calibre 12-75 (18). Canons damas juxtapos�s de 76,5 cm de Didier Drevet. Platines grav�es " L. Chalet � Saint Etienne ". Crosse en noyer quadrill�, marqu�e sur une pi�ce de laiton aux armes couronn�es de Poncins.
Dans un �tui jambon en cuir " Count de Poncins ".
Fabriqu� en 1887.
N�5275 - 1887. Poids�: 3,370 Kg.
5� cat�gorie.
Adjug�: 750��

And I just remembered that I've been saving photos of original French case colors from the turn of the 19-20th Century and agree with Canvasback that these are arsenic redo-s.

1 inch = 25.4 mm thus;
10 gauge = .775" = 19.69 mm (.775 x 25.4)
8 gauge = .835" = 21.21 mm (.835 x 25.4)
Both rounded to two decimal places.

A few smokeless loads using "Slow" powders loaded light, down to pressure levels which were never intended by their makers, can produce lower chamber pressure than black. These loads will burn "Dirty" & may result in squibs.
When smokeless is loaded as intended it will give higher chamber pressures than Black.

A 16 gauge with three inch chambers is relatively rare, but not unheard of. The vast majority of them are most likely pre-WWI.

Those are cyanide bath colors. Not charcoal bone as would have been on a gun of that vintage.
Newer stuff, probably post 1950s, possibly much newer.
Best regards,
WC-

It was re-colored to make it more presentable as a wall hanger. For $727.25 plus shipping costs I would look for something else to adore my walls. French guns are unusual in sense that you want to buy them in USA instead of EU for simple reason that many if not most Americans don't want them making prices less than similar stuff from: Belgium, Germany, Italy, England, Austria....

Many thanks for your observations Jager. I'm not a collector and I only buy guns I can shoot and prefer those to which I have a family connection in some way. (I do have some guns from Afghanistan which are wall hangers - but those are sort of "family" as well). You are welcome to purchase all the Belgian guns you want.

Argo, have you measured the chambers on any of those guns marked 75? If so, that should settle the question. I've never owned a
French gun marked anything longer than 70.

No, I don't own them Larry and have never held them (I wish I did have that one in particular). You've owned a lot more French guns than I've held. But I reckon that if it is proof marked in Saint-Etienne and stamped "7.5" or "75," then there is no reason to doubt the veracity of the poin�on anymore than there is to doubt a "6.5"/"65" or "7"/"70." Here's another one from Naturabuy.Fr. Helima 12 bore with 75mm chambers.
https://www.naturabuy.fr/Vends-fusil-art...em-3404608.html

You'll note the 7.5/75's and higher fall into two categories:
-- they are 1880-1910 - mostly Damascus barrels
-- or are 10 bore or larger.

And again I'll refer to this pamphlet (2nd paragraph of text): "The shells which are the most available and useful for shotguns (shooting with lead shot) have a length of 65mm for 12 - 32 gauge; But one also finds on the market shells for these gauges with a length of from 70 to 90 mm...."

Just to illustrate the point, here is a Didier-Drevet barrel, 16 gauge which looks to be chambered for 8.0. It is double proofed in Saint-Etienne for PS powder so it is pre-1900 and it does not have the 1900 prize marked on DD barrels but rather 1855, the date of his original gold medal at the Paris Universelle. Barrel is Damascus. It is post 1889 since chamber is marked in cm. (The barrel oddly is not dated or I cant read it.

Larry,
For a decade or so, my Darne Demonstrator gun was a 12 gauge R16, marked as 76mm chambers.

They are out there. Not common.

Gene, there is not a snowball's chance in he!! that gun has original case colors. Further, and not trying to rain on your parade, the gun reminds me of a brass era automobile, that someone chose to paint with candy tangerine metallic ureathane, with a clear coat.

Unfortunate, to my eyes.

Best,
Ted

Thanks Ted. I came to that opinion as well -sort of looked like my Vietnam CIDG tiger stripes; And since I had doubts about shooting Black Powder, I passed on the gun. I have a relative to help ship one (1) to me (initially) so I don't really want to make a mistake.

Cyanide but shoot the hell out of it! You can case color it later

Ted, there are obviously modern doubles chambered 3" in both 12 and 20ga. What I find interesting is Argo's page from Journee, referring to chambers as long as 90MM.

I have a more modern edition of Journee (1949) than his. And it obviously underwent significant editing and reorganization. My Section 5 is entitled "Choke Bored" and deals with the opposite end of the barrel from the chamber. Part of Section 4 refers to the chamber, which Journee specifies as being mostly made for shooting with 2 1/2" shells in 12-16-20ga, but 2 3/4" for 12ga pigeon guns. In the 2nd chapter, on cartridges, he warns against using 3" shells in 12's with 3" chambers and 2 3/4" shells in 16's and 20's with 2 3/4" chambers because of potentially dangerous pressures. But no mention of anything longer than 75MM.

I wonder if Journee wasn't getting a little "old fashioned" by the time of that later edition.

Larry,
I have a couple of different chamber measure gauges, both came from Brownell's, if I am not mistaken. Geoffroy Gournet has warned me about using SAAMI spec tools on French guns, point blank telling me they are not reliable for determining chamber length.

Gene has found a bunch of old guns, marked with eye opening chamber lengths, under French proof laws in effect at the time they were built. I've not had the chance to observe anything but 6.5, 65, 70, and 76. I wish I had a buck for every French gun I've seen that had 65 stamped on the flats. Most of them are.

Having said that, if I came up with a cool French gun, of any sort, that was around 6 pounds, proofed in the first half of the last century, and marked 76, I sure as hell wouldn't run down to the 'mart and buy a 3" load to try the old girl out with. From where I stand today, light loads make sense, especially in an old French gun. I suppose you could add Italian, Spanish, Belgian, Prussian, or, whatever, but, those guns, in that age catagory, are pretty far out of my wheel house. But, it would make sense to be cautious with ammunition for them as well.

I've also come to a point where, for my own use, if I look at a French gun that is marked 65, and say, 18.2 on bore, I expect it to still be there before I part with MY cash for the gun. I have owned, and continue to own guns that are modified in that way, but, I'm done BUYING any more like that.

For what it is worth, the beautiful R16 12 magnum that was here all those years, never saw a 3" round.

Best,
Ted

You're right Ted. The Gerest-Berthon with 1906 Didier-Drevet barrels had "7" (cm) chambers....I won't let Dau-in-law shoot anything but 2 1/2" RST low pressure shells from it. What I am looking for is an affordable 16 gauge, turn of the century Saint-Etienne gun with 28"-30" barrels with enough style to make me feel good about carrying it but not a renaissance art piece. Most of those seem to be associated with black powder or with the longer chambers. I've plenty of time so no hurry.

Gene,
There are plenty of French boxlocks out there, usually 16s, often with short chambers, and even more often for short money. "Out there" in this case refers to guns that are already in the states, that have had the owner "age out" of, for lack of a better term.
You don't have to import anything. The gun buying/selling dynamic has changed completely since I was last in France, but, in the mid 1990s, guns I could get perhaps $500-$800 for, here in the states, routinely sold for $1200-$2000 in France. Rich people hunt in France. A lot of times, a son or daughter inherited a mid grade French gun, and simply sold it to recover the windfall, rather than screwing around to find/pay for a place to bird hunt.
The gunmakers I was working with would go years between hunting trips.
It was a different story with pigs, which, seemed to be considered a tasty pest, from what I could tell. Farmers were happy to be rid of them.
I truly believe you will do better, here.

Best,
Ted

Case colors original?

Almost certainly not. Look like cyanide colors, not charcoal.

Thanks Ted. I've been watching for several months and not seen anything appealing. No pressure; I have seen a couple of guns on naturabuy.fr. I'll let you all know what I find and how I get it back. I guess I'm sort of looking for a 16 ga version of that 1887 browned 12 bore black powder hammer gun posted above. Here's a Helima (no idea what it means except its early 20th century Saint-Etienne), which is sort of up my alley except for the 26.5" barrels. I'd prefer hammers and Damascus but a version of this would be shootable
https://www.naturabuy.fr/juxtapose-cal-16-platines-item-4448807.html

From the photos is looks like an early type with no barrel flats and concave action bar. In these older doubles there is no radius between action face and flats. Instead there is a sharp corner, presumably because the action was milled vertically with a flat end cutter. The sharp corner is faintly visible in one of the photos.

The lack of radius worries me more than the case colours.

Argo, you would have liked the sideplated Drevet 16 I owned several years ago. Very nice gun. Put that one close to the top of the list of guns I should not have sold.

Now you tell me Larry. Got any pics? By the way, a couple of months ago reading about Pierre Didier-Drevet (pic below), I ran across a claim that he didn't make more than 300 barrels a year to insure quality. This explains why Darne and others went to other barrel makers. This pretty well is confirmed by our graph of his production based on the barrel serial numbers from the previous line.

Gene,
Everyone has their own tastes, but, all that gold, weirdly applied to the gun you posted, above, made me vomit in my mouth a little.

I really never cared for gold on guns. I've seen a gold washed lock or two, but, haven't seen any non gold washed locks that suffered the corrosion the wash was supposed to prevent.

It will be your gun, however, so, do as you please....


Best,
Ted

. Not my gun....still looking. But I like the lines and look. It's not the gold, it's the simplicity and elegance.