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If people are going to blame pesticides for the bobwhite quail decline I sure wish they would be careful enough to specify which class(es) of pesticides they think caused it. Insecticides are pesticides, and some of the bad ones from days long gone certainly must share some of the blame. Fungicides are also pesticides, are they a cause ............ and how? How about herbicides? They're also pesticides. Have they killed quail .............and how? Miticides, bactericides, larvicides? They're all pesticides. I think I am pretty well versed in the use of, and the dangers of, all these classes, having held a GA certified Pesticide Applicator License since the licensing was first offered. To say that "pesticides" are responsible for this or that is pretty vague and irresponsible, IMO. And, it doesn't do much to strengthen your argument when you don't even know the difference between the different classes, and what they do or don't do.

SRH

Absolutely false. They do not kill indiscriminately. Certain insecticides and larvicides kill certain species of insects and larvae. Applicators must scout fields carefully to determine what species of harmful insects are causing crop damage, and then determine if their numbers have reached an economic threshold, before deciding upon which product will best kill the target pests without reducing the numbers of the beneficial insects.

Your statement is perfect example of letting a lack of knowledge, and understanding, make you look foolish. But, you're in good company. There's no shortage of ignorance concerning pesticides.

SRH

Amen.

Thanks Stan.

I'm sure real evidence is out there some where, but I'd hope it's fair to say that second hand, now third hand anecdotes don't quite meet the facts is facts level. Another anecdote that isn't really relevant is that on a past anti lead thread, there was only one credible reference by a wildlife biologist that included lab analysis of a single Mallard found in the field, dead due to lead poisoning. Again, there may be good scientific evidence available, but it seems difficult to find.

On another point, folks familiar with the agriculture business may be able to confirm it, but I believe DDT was available as an ingredient in other commercially labeled pest control products well into the mid nineties. I'd suspect it wasn't as widely available, but I believe the truth is that it was in use well after most folks assumed a full ban was in effect.

I believe there is a disconnect between the time when people anecdotally see improvement results, and the actual time that things were outlawed. I think there is also an underappreciated increase in difficulty bringing cost effective food to consumers. I can recall living in an area as a kid that used DDT foggers in residential neighborhoods to control a mosquito outbreak. Today, when a deadly mosquito born illness outbreak occurs, the official response is for residents to look for and empty incidental standing water. Huh? Only thoughts.

Craig - I'm not sure why you refer to third hand anecdotes, as I was just illustrating the fact that lead poisoning has been recognized for a long time, going back long before I learned about it from a game warden in 1968. The USFWS, state wildlife agencies, foreign wildlife agencies, and universities spent tens of millions of dollars over decades studying the issue and the evidence was overwhelming. If you are intersted in the data, not anecdotes, have a look through articles here: http://www.peregrinefund.org/subsites/conference-lead/2008PbConf_Proceedings.htm

Lead is still an issue for scavenging raptors - to keep the population going, every wild condor in California is trapped annually and its blood put through a dialysis-like process to remove lead ingested from gut piles, lost game, and ground squirrels shot with .22's.

Lead ingested from game is also an issue for humans - see some of the articles on that website. A close friend is one of the country's premier game bird biologists and a very serious deer and pig hunter. He and his wife subsist on game, and he switched to copper bullets years ago because standard expanding bullets deposit a cloud of lead in tissue well beyond the wound channel. I am not happy that California is banning lead for most game, but it is the right thing to do, for both wildlife and humans.

DDT and related compounds were banned for nearly all uses in the US in 1972 but persists in the environment and is still widely used in third world countries. North American raptors and shorebirds which migrate to Central and South America pick up heavy doses in their wintering grounds. Studies of eggs in research collections showed that the eggshell thinning which causes reproductive failure in birds started in the 1940's, right after DDT was introduced. In Europe and North America, shells became gradually thicker after the ban and as result fish-eating birds are again abundant and we have peregrines nesting in our cities. Again, the evidence was incontrovertible, not anecdotal.

LGF, good points--but you likely won't convince Craig. Here's the point I always make about lead and "junk science": While most scientists believe in global warming, there are also global warming "deniers" with good scientific credentials. Given how long the lead shot issue was studied, if it's "junk science", then it should be easy enough to find some wildlife biologists involved in the studies who are lead poisoning deniers. I've issued that challenge, and I've yet to see any evidence from anyone with credentials in the field of wildlife biology who's a lead poisoning denier. You hit the nail on the head when you said there's unanimity when it comes to the dangers posed by lead shot.

So the question really isn't whether lead shot can endanger wildlife. Rather, it's whether we've basically solved the lead shot problem with the steps we've already taken: Lead shot ban for waterfowl; most wetlands requiring nontoxic shot no matter what critters you're hunting. The simple answer I got from one wildlife biologist: The science supporting lead shot restrictions pretty much ends at the shoreline. It's much like the chemical question: Which chemicals can we use as herbicides and pesticides that target only those plants and bugs we want to kill? That's what's been done with lead shot restrictions, which ban lead shot in those situations where it's a serious potential threat, while leaving it alone where there isn't any "good science" to support the bans.

Thanks for the lecture Larry. You're wrong, yes I am convincible. We as a nation are much better off with reductions in various toxins. Lead is an excellent example. Take for instance LGF's link, the very fist reference study opens by saying 'lead poisoning in humans is very well known, our understanding about it in wildlife is at a mid 1800's level'.

I've only ever questioned your foregone conclusions. What's the difference between a foregone conclusioner and a denier? Maybe, all it comes to is that the foregone conclusioner has political decision making clout and the denier gets stuck with the demeaning label? What makes you think that you can take a foregone conclusion to the point that you want to and then hit the brakes?

Returning to the original article noted rather than going down anecdotal rat holes.

Do you believe this new one study by statistical analysis is correct that pesticides are the leading cause of grassland bird decline?

Aw geez, here we go again... except this time we have LGF posting links to peregrine fund junk science instead of GrouseGuy Ben Deeble, and BrentD. And naturally, Larry is back with his usual anti-lead ammo diatribe. In last year's "Lead and Condors Deaths" thread, when Larry and Brent were shown dramatic differences in what blood lead levels constituted a lethal dose in eagles, they both got all pissed off at us instead of acknowledging that some or all of these agenda driven studies must be bogus.

Hey, do all of these brilliant ecologists remember how Rachel Carson, the author of "Silent Spring", said that robins were on the verge of extinction at the same time she was pushing her anti-DDT propaganda?