doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Over/Under Guild Gun (French?) ID & Info. Request

Hello,

A member on shotgunworld.com recommended I pick the brains of you lot.

I recently picked up a so called "Belgian guild gun" over/under 12g, but after taking it apart I now realize most of the parts are from France and it's likely a french guild gun. I assume the seller was grossly misinformed.









I'm interested in learning anything I can about this recent purchase. I'm not interested in determining/justifying it's value as much as I am uncovering it's history and seeing if anyone else has a similar shotgun.

Anyone have an idea on a rough manufacture date/decade? I'm having a hard time finding specific information on anything that looks like this particular shotgun or other over/under guild guns. Most information I can find is on SxS french shotguns.

I've done as much research as I can crawling this and other forums. This is what I know:

Marked RPF on receiver for "Rivolier Pere et Fils" or "Rivolier Pere & Sons"



PT with crown on breach


CMR with (RPF) under the bottom barrel


"Portee Garantie P. Delalle"


Top and bottom barrel marked with the same St. Etienne proof and 18.4 65 (65mm) and there is a number of 5556? Also, more RPF and PT crown marks. There is also an unreadable mark that just looks like a barcode on the metal that joins the two barrels.


Any additional insight or info regarding this shotgun's history would be much appreciated!

Also, curious what i need to look for when determining if this shotgun is safe to shoot. I will be using RST 12ga., 2 1/2", Lite, Vel. 1175, 1 oz., 7 1/2 shot loads. Lockup is super tight and I don't see any signs of bulging or honing or good-ole-boy gunsmithing.

Good move. In one those these threads there is a RPF Advert posted by Argo44:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post480450

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post475855

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Thanks!

Digging a little deeper I found this: http://www.littlegun.info/arme%20francaise/artisans%20p%20q%20r/a%20peugeot%20gb.htm

Lot of similarities . . but a lot of differences. Just opens up even more questions . . .

It's very difficult to date French shotguns. Unlike most European countries, the French proofhouse does not use a date code. And you don't see a lot of French OU's. You'll certainly see more Belgian OU's that bear a superficial resemblance to that gun than you will French ones. Not a surprising bit of confusion if someone doesn't know proofmarks.

That gun has the double St. Etienne proof. And its range is "guaranteed"--which is just a bit of advertising. Other than that, pretty standard French proofs. +

Re the Peugeot link: I've seen a few Peugeot sxs. Owned one several years back, and I have a friend who now owns one. But I've never seen a Peugeot OU.

I haven't seen a Peugeot in years. Used to see a lot of them on road sides with raised hoods. Nice looking gun. Gil

Interesting that it's a 12 gauge...had I not seen the bore dimensions and saw that it was a French gun, I would have just assumed it was a 16. Based on my limited observations, it appears the French were very big on the 16 gauge. Either way, that's a nice gun and I especially enjoy the rounded receiver bottom. I bet it's very nice to carry. Balanced well? What does it weigh?

Both those previous lines posted by Raimey had some good fundamental information on RPF (and on Peugeot guns). Rivolier was no "guild gun;" he was a very prominent industrialist with his own factory and of course was head of the Saint Etienne Proof House for years; there is a street named after him in Saint Etienne. To get to the heart of the matter on those lines, though, you'll have to wade through some rants, all too repetitive here unfortunately, which are "embarrassing." The photo of the 1911 Rivolier catalog posted in the line has been kidnapped and held for ransom by photobucket. Here is a 1954 Catalog though with an O/U pictured. Rivolier is still in business and you can buy an O/U from them (though I suspect it's made in Turkey).



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I believe Boss invented the o/u about 1902?. French picked up on it fairly quickly I suppose. Here is a line about a 1930's Saint Etienne O/U where we managed to identify, the maker of the gun, the maker of the barrels and the retailer who sold it...again the really interesting photos have been kidnapped.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...2782#Post452782

The photos won't load for me at my current location. But since it's an o/u and it's cambered for "65"...it's after 1912. As we established previously, Saint Etienne went from measuring chambers in mm to cm in 1889 and back to mm in 1912. (photos and records on that line, "dating early 20th century French shotguns" have also disappeared).

Here are a few Rivolier O/U's for sale on Naturabuy.Fr..France's "gunbroker"...all pretty new....and I suspect Rivolier retains their records.
https://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusils-Superposes-Rivolier-critere-23015.html

1911 Catalog cover. Look up Jean-Baptiste Rivolier.

It certainly seems to be an interesting shotgun and I�m really enjoying the research into it�s history. I�m not new to firearms, but I am new to double guns, so this is all very exciting. Not 100% sure where a shotgun should balance, but it seems to be right at the break point just forward of the trigger guard. Weight is just over 6 pounds. It feels balanced, so that�s what matters. Thanks for replying!

Gene, above the O/U in the ad appears a Darne clone. Interesting. Gil

Raimey is a good dude. Put me on the right path and I really appreciate it. Thanks for the reply and the information. A lot to digest and a lot more to look into. The bickering on this forum doesn�t help in that regard. Still, lot of great info on here.

Raimey suggested I contact Rivolier to see if they have any insight to offer, so I�ll be doing that. Surprising to learn that this �Belgian guild gun� isn�t Belgian or a guild gun. Whatever it is, it�s been fun to research, which easily justifies its price, to me.

Any idea if the barrels are choked? My gut reaction is they are both cylinder bore.

Keep the info coming, this is a blast. New shells from rst arrived today. After a proper cleaning I�ll be taking it out for some sporting clays this weekend. If I return with all 10 fingers, then I�ll provide an update.

Thanks again for the historical insight. Much appreciated