doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Purchasing Einstecklauf

Can an Einstecklauf be purchased in Europe and shipped to the US without the hassle of importation in the sense that a full firearm would? In other words, if one were to purchase one from eGun with the seller's understand that they would need to ship it overseas to the US, could that pass through customs without issue?

fallschirmjaeger,
Under US law, an Einstecklauf is not a firearm, it is only a part. German law may treat it differently. Simpson has them from time to time, you might ask them if there are any special considerations. I noted on the other thread that you just bought a drilling from them, what did you get? was it modified to accept an EL?
Mike

Mike,

It is one of the Sauer model 3000 type guns in 16 ga and 7x57R. I'm not sure if it has been modified or not and the descriptions on Simpsons rarely go into too much detail. I suppose I'll need to wait until I get it in my hands before I will even know if I'll be keeping it, let alone seeking out an Einstecklauf to be fitted in it. I also have a lot more research to do into the world of drillings, but I felt after watching them sell from various retailers over the last few years that this seemed a decent price. I've been wrong before though... I'll post pictures of it when I receive it and if I decide to keep it.

fallschirmaeger,
Last year I bought a Krieghoff 16x16-7x65R from them, that had been modified for an EL. I just happened to have a Krieghoff EL in 22 LR, and it fit right in, it even had a decent start on regulation. So, there is a decent chance yours may also be set up. If not, filing the notch in the extractor isn't that hard, but getting a flat area in the rim recess( to fit headspace screw) without the tool might be a "trick". BTW, 7x57R is one of my favorites.
Mike

I bought one from Germany - the german seller / gunshop / manufacturer simply gets an export permit and sends it. Not sure what happens in the US, but here in the UK I had it sent to a friendly gun dealer.

I used http://www.zimmermann-waffen.info and with the aid of Google Translate we worked it out. Mine shoots very well.

Do note though, there is an element of work required at your end to fit it to your gun.

1) The rim is supplied over size and this needs turning down to fit the rim in your gun to get correct headspace. There is also a brass adjustable collar that needs adjusting to the forcing cone - this is on a screw thread and takes five minutes to get in correct.

2) The muzzle sleeve is also oversize and needs turning down to fit the choke.

3) Finally a small slot needs cutting into the extractor and a retaining screw fitted - this may some sucking of teeth!!

I got mine in 7x65R to match the existing 7x65R barrel so I have a double rifle (its a combination gun) for shooting running boar. For me a 22 Hornet or other small centrefire is probably not that useful - any fox will fall over just as dead. I could use slugs for driven boar on the continent, but my biggest challenge is getting licence permission to hold them in the UK and indeed even getting 16 guage slugs in the UK. Don't really fancy trying to shoot big boar with untested and unzeroed slugs.

As a double I can put tow rounds from each barrel into a 1" group at 50 yds.

The US is a participant in ITARS, the International Traffic in Arms Regulations. As such, the US interprets importing gun parts, with the exception of sight parts, in excess of $100 wholesale, as requiring permits to import or export. I don't do any exporting, but I do have a Type 8 FFL for importing firearms. To import an einstecklauf requires the approval of a Form 6 by the ATF. There is some provision for the occasional import by a regular Type 1 licensee. I have purchased inserts from Zimmerman, but the German export fees and shipping exceed 500 Euros per shipment. So what I've done is to have another importer who brings guns in add it to his Form 6, then ship it with guns he was shipping. My cost was to him was $100, I believe, for the shared cost on the insert barrel. I know of gun parts, especially gunstocks being imported making it past Customs, but without a Form 6, if Customs sees it, it will be confiscated.

Vol423,
Thanks for the info.
The fitting procedure described by Heym20 applies to Zimmermann full length, adjustable at the muzzle ELs. The more traditional 22mm and 44mm long rimfire ones are more like my description. I suspect some are imported installed in used drillings and later separated and sold alone.
Mike

The used ones are usually file fitted to a no longer existing gun so there is a lottery involved if it will actually fit your gun but weld up and refit is an option. Basic engineering really.

bavarianbrit.
The ones I had installed in Germany( also Bavaria-Muennerstadt) didn't have any file work on the EL itself. Granted, the notch in the extractor was filed in. My friend had a device that looked like the backend of an EL, except that instead of the headspacing screw, there was a hole, into which the pilot of a "spot facer" fit. The spot facer cut a section of the rim recess flat, to fit the headspacing screw. If you have one that has had the headspacing screw filed ( instead of flattening the rim recess), you should be able to turn it a little bit and refit it.

Mike

Hey guys, I don't mean to hijack this thread, but I just bought an EL for my drilling. It is a 16ga/.22 long rifle. I have some questions as I am considering fitting it myself.


When I fully turn down the rim screw, the unit projects several thou above the chamber face. I can drop it to the perfect depth by turning the screw. See below...


I don't have the milling device to mill the rim, so, can I file the face of the rim screw down and cut the driver notch a bit deeper to get the same effect?

Also, is the small notch in the barrel's ejector difficult to file in? It seems pretty straightforward as the small roll pin is pretty tiny.


Anyone with any experience here?

Dilly541,
The "rim screw" you mentioned is what I called the "headspacing screw". The rim recess is radiused, usually, at the bottom. The screw is usually "square" at the bottom, so the object of the "spotfacer" I mentioned is make a "seat" to fit the screw. A seat can be made with other tools, such as scraper, graver, burr in a Dremel, etc. The main thing is to remove the radius, where the screw is( removing it completely would increase headspace). I have seen then fitted by filing the bottom of the screw where it contacts the rim recess. It worked, it's just not "elegant". As far as the notch in the extractor is concerned, you are correct that it is fairly straight forward. I suggest filing or sawing it too narrow and then "file and fit" a little at a time with a safe edge swiss file, to a close fit, before fitting the headspace/rim screw. This makes locating the area to be worked easier. Notice the "witness mark" on the EL. The clear intention is to make a corresponding one on the main extractor. Unless you drive the roll pin out, I find this unnecessary. Since the EL seems to be used, there is a fair chance that its "regulation" is not too far off. I suggest boresighting it after fitting, to see how far off it is. When(if) adjusting the POI, if it seems to impact backward from the adjustment, the adjustment may have been too much and the bullet is hitting the barrel. Don't ask how I know.

Mike

Thank you very much Mike for the detailed info. Just so I am clear on what you are describing, Let me illustrate. Here is what the insert looks like with the headspace screw bottomed out all the way.

inserted

The entire unit is flat and flush but it protrudes slightly above the chamber face.


I think the screw has been slightly filed or peened already as you can see in this picture. This would be the contact point in the chamber rim.


So, you are saying I can flatten the red area of the rim's edge to accept the screw head to allow it to sink a few thou deeper into the rim and thus fit flush?

And these would be the tools to use?


Thanks, Steve

I'm having a hell of a time with this insert and am wondering what I am doing wrong. I orient it in the barrel like so.


No matter how I adjust the contact lugs, once I tighten it, it looks as though the bullet will strike the side of the barrel. When I look down the bore, I see the choke end of the shotgun barrel. I am hesitant to modify the gun at all if the insert will never work...Thoughts?

Dilly541,
I can see how you are getting agitated, but don't worry, you will ultimately get it. You seem to understand very well, what I described. The EL was fit to another gun before, or at least someone tried. This is evidenced by the filing on the screw. With the screw bottomed out and that edge filed off, I'm perplexed that it is "standing proud". Without having it "in hand" it is a little difficult to know where the interference is. We may have to take it one step at a time, and this will take some time. Is your gun chambered for 70mm(2 3/4") or 65mm ( 2 1/2") shells? All mine were fit into 2 3/4" chambers. Lets try taking the screw all the way out, and loosening the "locking lug" all the way, and see if it will fit into the chamber-flush or below. If not, smoke the bottom part of the El with a lighter or candle, drop it back in and seat it with a little pressure. Take it out and see if there is an area of hard interference. Be sure there is no interference from the roll pin, by just pulling it "up" beforehand. Lets do this and see what we get. I'm a little bit disturbed that you can't adjust it to clear the barrel( I'm guessing you had the locking lug tight).They did make a different, special one for the left barrel and one for the "over" barrel of O/Us. See if there are any markings to indicate this on your EL. Let me know what you find.

Mike

Thanks for working with me on this Mike. I spend some more time on it today.

The gun is a 2/3/4" chamber. Its a 1960 Sauer. If I loosen or remove the rim screw, and back off the locking lugs, the insert will fall in approx. 3/16 below the face of the chamber. No issues from the lugs or ejector etc. Near as I can tell the pressure and subsequent support is on the permanent and adjustable lug bearing surfaces, along with the sliding tightener piece.

Red arrows represent the permanent and adjusting lug locations. Yellow is the tightener.

I tried swapping the adusting lugs back and forth. No change. They can be set so far up that the insert wont go in, or so far down, that it is loose. I think I have a fair range of adjustment. I tried one down one up. The insert bore direction changed, but I always saw shotgun barrel...I tried it in the left barrel...same thing. I tried it in my Blaser BBF, same but not quite as bad (shorter shotgun barrel).

SO, I got to thinking and applied some aluminum foil tape little by little on the surface where it always seemed to be raising the bore.


Here is an illustration of what happened.


So, provided I can still get some regulation adjustments from the adjusting lugs, could I be on the right path here? I will worry about getting it flush and ejector fitted later.

Steve

Dilly541,
Now, the results of that test indicates to me that you don't really have a problem, the El seem to be fine. I don't think you will need the tape. What I called the locking lug, you called the "tightener/sliding tightener piece". The two "adjustable lug bearing surfaces" should do what the tape did for you.
Leave the "tightener/sliding tightener piece" loose. Adjust the headspace with the "rim screw". It may line up so the filed area gives you the clearance you need, if not, then you can deal with the radius in the rim recess. Once you have the headspace right, deal with the slot in the extractor. Then put it into the gun and tighten it. then bore sight on a target, at whatever distance you want it sighted for. You will have to have some way to hold the gun, line the sights up on the target, then look through the El. If you can see the barrel with the target centered looking through the El., that's OK. If you have a vise, you will find it easier to hold the barrels(by the underlugs, pad with leather, etc)in the vice and line the sights up with a target. To adjust it, visualize how the El will have to move to center on the target( since you have moved the adjustable lugs, put them back to about the center).Take the El out and make the appropriate adjustments. Put it back in, bore sight again, make adjustments, keep doing this until the target is centered. Sometime during the process, tighten it in, bore sight it, tighten it tighter, bore sight it again and observe how much the sight picture changed by changing the torque. This will illustrate how important it is to install it the same way every time. Once you have it centered, take it to the range/woods and shoot it, on a target at the range you selected before. This time make your adjustments according to the bullet's point of impact. Be sure to use the set trigger and a good rest. If you get it sighted in and later remove it, check the POI when you reinstall it. If it doesn't shoot to the same place, don't get too upset, change the torque on the tightener, until it comes back. Good luck.

Mike

Ok, will do...thanks again. I hope this helps others understand how these things work as well. There is not a lot of info out there.

All fitted. took me about an hour. All I had to do was give the headspace screw a couple licks from a file and it seated nicely.




Now, to see how it shoots.

Thanks again Mike.

Dilly541,
Great, "you done good". I find Einstecklaufs very useful. I have taken Hare, Fox, Bobcats, Racoons, and Squirrels with them.

Mike

Took it to the range yesterday and monkey'd around with it. Shot the 7x65R first. Was really pleased with it. I didn't even touch the scope adjustments. Whoever set it up before me left it right where I wanted it.

5 CCB shots at 100 yds

Then I got to the insert. Really not hard to figure out. I left the tape in as it helped with the up and down. Peeled off one layer to get it to where I was happy on the vertical. Once I was there I just brought it to the right with the adjustment lugs.

This was 25yds, same point of aim on the scope. One inch square.

Really happy. While I was at the range, a guy next to me says..."I have 410 inserts that would fit that thing..."

Oh man...

Dilly541,
That is great. If it were mine, I would just leave it in the gun. I have a 410 insert also, but since it is for a 12 ga. I haven't tried it. I do have a couple short 16 ga. ones, but they don't work well, they seem to be "shop made" and slip behind the extractor. The 12 ga is a commercial one, still in the box, I just don't use 12 ga. drillings. My guess is, life is great around your house with a group like that from an Einstecklauf.
Mike

I�m pretty pleased all round Mike. There were a few spectators at the range that couldn�t believe that little thing was grouping that well. Granted, it is 25yds, but that�s likely my typical �engagement range�.

Now, I�m working on a square drive key to tighten it. That was missing.

Dilly541,
They are not really all that hard to make, they look like a long version of those used on corned beef cans. Now that I think about it, you might be able to make an inelegant temporary one from one of those. Might as well get some cabbage when you buy the beef.
Mike

My wife would prefer I pass on the cabbage. LOL.
Already made a key. I had a small broken file with a square stem. Heated it up and bent it into the shape of one of those corned beef keys. I sandwiched it between 2 pieces of walnut and sanded it smooth as a handle/grip. Looks like a car key and works perfect.

Dilly541,
That's great, there is more than one way to skin a cat. BTY, my wife is not a big fan of corned beef and cabbage either. It was one of my late friend and mentor, Gene's favorites, so I try to cook it in the deer camp once a year as a tribute to him. Menu-corned beef/cabbage with potato salad and cornbread( Gene preferred crackling bread, so I sometimes crumble bacon into it). I just had it on my mind, because he was a big German gun guy too.
Mike

I made a key by cutting off a tiny craftsman screwdriver--it had a square shank that only required a bit of filing. Sounds like you have it in hand, BTW nice 100 yd group as well! Steve

Krieghoff ain�t still has some of these. They cost between $450 and $750 fitted and zeroes.

Good thread!! My 'puter was acting up with "doubleguns" about the time this started...glad I finally saw it.

Well done Dilly! I have the same EL, also bought used, and I had to order new slide adjusters before I could get it to work. Once I got everything put together it shoots as good as yours. I sighted mine in for the same 25 yards but my drilling has no scope. I think they're a really nice addition to a drilling.

I don't believe you'll ever go wrong following Mike's advice.

I ended up getting two new sliding lugs too. The tape trick worked but didn't seem permanent. I filed them little by little until I got back where I wanted.


Here is a 5 shot group with me removing the insert between each shot.


Even at 50m it still isn't bad. I was using Remington "yellow jackets". I held on the X for the last shot.



I think it will do...



Thanks to all for the advice and direction. I am really happy with this little addition to an already versatile firearm. I have done a whole range of testing with it, but it probably calls for a whole new thread.

I for one would welcome a new thread detailing your testing and efforts to adjust and sight in.
Nice effort!
Mike