doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Crescent Steel Co., Pittsburgh

Courtesy of Researcher
The 1907 Three-Barrel Gun Co. catalog lists "Damascus or Imported steel" for the Grade 0; the 1908 "Crescent Steel" for the Grade 0.
In 1909 the Royal Three-Barrel Grade 1 was listed with "Crescent Steel" barrels.



Crucible Steel Co. of America was a consolidation of the following companies July 21, 1900
https://books.google.com/books?id=xdk5AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA254&lpg
Aliquippa Steel Co.
Anderson, Du Puy & Co.
Benj. Atha & Illingworth Co.
Beaver Falls Steel Works
Canton Steel Works
Cayuga Tool Steel Works
Consumers� Heating Co.
Crescent Steel Works
Cumberland Steel & Tin Plate Co.
Howe, Brown & Co.
La Belle Steel Works
Park Steel Works
Sanderson Bros. Steel
Singer, Nimick & Co.
Spaulding & Jennings Co.
Norwalk Steel Co. was incorporated in 1910
In 1911, Midland Steel Co. was purchased and became Pittsburgh CrucibleSteel Co.


In addition to Sanderson Bros. Steel Works in Syracuse, New York, Crucible operated the following steel works in 1902.
https://books.google.com/books?id=2yYqAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA331&lpg
Pennsylvania
Aluquippa Steel Works
Beaver Falls Steel Works
Black Diamond Steel Works
Crescent Steel Works
Howe, Brown & Co. Works
La Belle Steel Works
Pittsburgh Steel Works
Singer, Nimick & Co. Works
New Jersey
Atha Steel Co.
West Bergen Steel Works

The Iron Age Directory, David Williams Co., 1911
http://books.google.com/books?id=chtaAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA390&lpg
Listed the following companies under �Steel, Gun Barrel�
Edgar Allen & Co. Chicago, Ill.
Bethlehem Steel Co., South Bethlehem, Pa.
Carnegie Steel Co., Pittsburgh, Pa.
Colonial Steel Co., Pittsburgh, Pa.
Crucible Steel Co. of America, Pittsburgh, Pa
Farist Steel Co., Bridgeport, Ct
Wm. Jessop & Sons, Inc, 91 John St. New York
C. Pardee Works, Perth Amboy, NJ
Thomas Prosser & Son, 26 Platt St. NY
Vanadium Alloys Steel Co., Latrobe, Pa
West Leechburg Steel Co., Pittsburgh, Pa

We have good evidence that Crucible/Sanderson/Halcomb did not produce the "rough forged tubes" used by the U.S. makers but in some manner served as importers of the Belgian tubes
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=17ixogftgITEblNUWtmFBv96ZvgjK6eFell8GsAWd-KI

And most of the U.S. makers picked marketing names for their barrels that had nothing to do with the source. A Hunter Arms trade name Fulton "Comstock Arms Co. Duluth" was marked "Missabe Fluid Steel".
The Messabi Iron Ore Range is the largest iron deposit in NE Minn. into Michigan, with low phosphorus iron.

SO - did the Three-Barrel Gun Co. source their rifle barrels from Krupp, and their shotgun damascus tubes from Belgium (like everyone else) and their steel shotgun tubes from Crescent Steel of Pittsburgh and Krupp in higher grades?? Could Crescent Steel have had a license to produce Krupp tubes?

Carnegie and Bethlehem Steel were licensed to manufacture Krupp steel plate in 1897
New York Times Nov. 7th, 1897
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9A00E5DA123CE433A25754C0A9679D94669ED7CF

Has anyone viewed any, any Krupp style stamps on any Three Barrel Gun Company offerings? If we had a baseline, you could lop off a segment & centrifuge it?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I have two both marked the same way. No additional stampsletters logos etc.
Numbers 700&1500

A Krupp stamp by itself means little or nothing. There have been Damascus Lefever barrels that were stamped Krupp, even though we know Krupp never produced Damascus tubes. Most likely, some Damascus tubes were mistakenly stamped Krupp when they were still in the white and the Damascus pattern would have been difficult or impossible to see.

Steel is an alloy of iron, carbon, and other ingredients. The number of individual heats (batches), and recipies, and different processes to remove gasses and impurities that have been concocted since the advent of the steel industry make it virtually impossible to nail down the origin of a piece of Three Barrel Gun Co. barrel steel to a particular steel manufacturer over 100 years ago. Even with modern methods of production and modern spectroscopic analysis performed during melting, two consecutive heats calling for the same steel, produced in the same furnace on the same day by the same employees will have slightly different chemistry. It would be much more productive to try to find old invoices or billing records to determine who supplied unfinished tubes or barrel steel to a given gunmaker.

Au contraire mon fr�re, a Krupp stamp could mean everything. Unequivocally, the scattergun tubes posted were sourced from Liege & under the Sauer Wildmann trademark.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

The bulk of the German rough bored fluid steel tubes were rolled in Liege and Sauer sought protection in Beligum for their Wildmann trademark from 1896 forward.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

OK, I'll concede that a Krupp stamp could mean that barrels were made from Krupp steel. In fact, that would probably indicate a very high probability that they were made of Krupp steel. Unfortunately, as we have seen, a Krupp stamp could also mean they were stamped incorrectly, as in the case of Damascus "Krupp" barrels... something we know Krupp did not either produce or license. Hence my statement about a Krupp stamp meaning little or nothing, when it comes to being certain about the origin of a gun barrel. There have also been fake or counterfeit upgrades which have been stamped or engraved with Krupp or Whitworth, for example, in order to deceptively convey that a gun had the higher quality steel used in higher grade guns. And I'll stand by my comments about the futility of attempting to identify the steel supplier for a particular set of barrels by analyzing a piece of steel taken from them by any means... and most certainly not by centrifuging a solid piece of gun barrel.

I haven't gotten around to what the composition of the tube might or might not be. No one but a Belgium exporter or some associated Belgian exporter/importer would have reason to apply a trademark w/ protection in/for the country of Belgium.

Centrifuging metal is a bit of a joke, but if you can make something from centrifuging molten metal I'm sure you can break something by centrifuging molten metal. I'll get back to you on the component comparison.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Not relevant to 1909, but of interest

The Mechanical and Other Properties of Iron and Steel in Connection with Their Chemical Composition, 1891
https://books.google.com/books?id=-c8xAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA30&dq
For ordnance material generally a harder and stronger kind of steel is used, although some prefer a mild steel for guns:
Terre Noire: .12% carbon;
Cammell: .14 - .19%;
Vickers: .24 - .27%;
Trubia (Spain): .23 - .33%.
Harder steels:
Firth: .34 - .4% carbon;
Whitworth: .3 - .42%;
Bofors (�Open hearth� cast without blowholes): .35 - .45%;
Witten: .47%;
Krupp: .45 - .71%;
Terre Noire (�Open hearth� cast without blowholes): .5 - .88%.

Barrels for small arms carbon content:
Solingen .13%
Terre Noire .3%
Spanish .43%
Witten .47%
St. Chamond .49%
Firminy .57%
Unieux .60%

Manganese
Five samples from Krupp guns average .14%;
Firth, Whitworth, Cammell, Vickers gun steel averaged .23%;
Terre Noire forged steel .2%;
Witten .41%;
Bofors steel .35 - .60%;
Terre Noire steel .53 - .67%.

�Gun Steels�
https://books.google.com/books?id=-c8xAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA196&dq

Krupp Fluss Stahl (Homogeneous Fluid Steel) was introduced about 1890 and by reported composition was similar to AISI 1045.

Krupp Spezial Gewehr Lauf Stahl (Special Gun Barrel Steel) was similar to AISI 1060.

Krupp marked tubes stamped �Acier Cockerill� or with �LLH� of Laurent Lochet-Habran are commonly found.

American Rifleman, April 8, 1915, Fred Adolph, �More About Gun Barrel Steel�
https://books.google.com/books?id=EpcwAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA25&lpg
�Krupp makes 200 kinds of steels�


BTW: Composition analysis by Optical Emission Spectroscopy is quite precise
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dnRLZgcuHfx7uFOHvHCUGnGFiLiset-DTTEK8OtPYVA/edit

Keith not for the sake of argument, truly for education can you show me a set of Damascus tubes with the stamping like I have posted above? I think there is a Big difference between a Damascus barrel the gun company engraved �Krupp steel� on and one that has a trademark stamp. I can show you 2 Lefevers with engraved Krupp or otherwise written Krupp on the Damascus but have not seen any Damascus with the trademark lettering. I think there is a big difference between an error made while in the white or an aftermarket attempt to fake then there would be other
I think there is a big difference between an error made while in the white or an aftermarket attempt to fake then there would be original manufacturering to decive.