doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Hollenbeck / Royal Gun Co Drilling #1518

Good afternoon, gentlemen! I hope everyone's weekend is going great!

As a collector of "working-man's" combination rifles, I've been on the lookout for an affordable drilling for some time. As a native West Virginian, I'd pretty much settled on a Hollenbeck gun.

And although I probably paid too much for it, I recently threw some money at an auction and won gun #1518, in 12ga full/full over .30-30. In retrospect, I probably paid too much, and after reading more on here and learning that damascus is indeed not actually a pipe-bomb waiting to happen, I probably should have bought a nicer damascus gun instead, as I've passed over several over the years. Hindsight, heh.

The shotgun barrels appear to be plain steel, and the engraving is light, with some wear in a few places. The shotgun bores are supposedly excellent, though the rifle bore is supposedly a bit dark. Externally, there looks to be the sort of bluing wear that one would expect from a well-loved 100+ year old gun, and none of the case hardening color remains on the receiver. The wood is surprisingly decent considering the other wear, except for a small chip out of the forearm. The top of the buttplate is a bit mangled and worn, as if the gun spent a lot of time propped up somewhere other than in a gun cabinet.

Unfortunately, it hasn't shipped yet, so I can't provide high-res pictures. I suppose I ought to have waited to post, but maybe I have "first drilling fever", heh.

I have a few dumb questions:

1. I assume that all of these guns had nitro-proofed shotgun barrels? I can't see any proof marks in the auction photos, but they are kind of low-res and the seller may not know what he is looking for, I dunno.

2. Is there anything in particular with these guns that I ought to check for before shooting it? I'd hate for it to violently self-disassemble!

3. Would it be worthwhile to re-proof it, or am I just being pedantic and ought to just shoot it?

4. I assume that all of these guns were produced late enough that they all have chambers no shorter than 2.75"?

5. Does anyone have a recommendation for mounting QD return-to-zero scope rings without mangling the gun up too badly? I was thinking maybe I could tap the rib and a screw on a section of picatinny rail, then remove it and install grub screws if I ever sell the gun.

6. I imagine a proper reblue job would cost more than the gun is worth, eh? Probably ruin any "collector value" as well?

7. If I have to send it off to a 'smith (and considering that I am just a poor dumb redneck who raises cattle, not some kind of wealthy oil-baron or something), who might you recommend? I am not sure that I'd trust our local guy with this gun.

Thanks, folks! I'm really looking forward to becoming part of the drilling community, and hopefully my Valmets won't get too jealous. Y'all have a wonderful weekend!

In the old factory ledger, serial number 1518 is on the first page of guns using Royal Gun Co. grade numbers. It is listed as a Grade 1, 12 x 12 x .30-30, with 28-inch Krupp barrels, weighing 7 pounds 7 ounces, half pistol grip, 14 x 1 5/8 x 2 7/8, sold 8-12-09 for $60 to J.B. Auchmuty. From the Royal Gun Co. catalog --

Welcome on your first posting Mr. Polecat, and congratulations on your new/old American Drilling. I never owned one of these guns, but I believe I can answer at least some of your questions:

1) The U.S. never had an official proof house as England and many European countries did. Some manufacturers here did their own in-house proof testing and stamped their guns with some mark to indicate they passed. Others did not. Your best option is probably an inspection by a competent gunsmith who specializes in doubles or drillings.

2) See no. (1) above.

3) See no. (1) above.

4) I would not automatically assume anything. including chamber length. When you have your gun inspected by a competent gunsmith, ask him to measure the chambers if you do not know how to do that yourself. Then you would want to use the appropriate low pressure and lower velocity ammo suitable for a 100 year old gun in order to prevent damaging the wood, breeching surfaces, and yourself, of course.

5) I myself would never recommend drilling and tapping the rib for any sort of scope mounting on this drilling. You paid up for this gun because it is a low production collectible vintage piece. Unless you wish to immediately lose hundreds of dollars in value by drilling a few small holes, you would do best to stick with your Valmet combination guns when you wish to use a scope.

6) Same as above. Unless your gun is quite abused and in desperate need of restoration to salvage and preserve it, any unnecessary refinishing is more likely to reduce its' value rather than enhance it. It may look prettier, but it will likely be worth much less to any collector. if you did decide to reblue the barrels, only slow rust bluing would be appropriate. Hot salts bluing should never be done on a gun with soldered ribs, as the salts will attack and loosen the solder. You'd be looking at around $300.00 for a decent slow rust bluing job, perhaps a bit more considering the extra work with the open sights versus a shotgun with only a bead.

7) I have purchased a couple doubles from Jerry Andrews in Moundsville, West Virginia, and have heard from numerous sources that he is a knowledgeable, competent, and fair priced double gunsmith. You might want to check him out and give him a call since he is relatively close to you. There are a couple guys on this site who collect these American drillings and will hopefully have more information to give to you concerning proper loads and the best choices for gunsmiths. I'm betting that none of them is going to encourage you to start drilling and tapping holes in one of these guns. Looking forward to seeing your pics when it arrives.

Mr. Polecat

Congratulations on the purchase of your Hollenbeck drilling. They are intriguing guns designed and made by one of the more talented gunsmiths of the era, Frank Hollenbeck. There is a thread from mid-February you might enjoy reading which was started by Ginge, who is having his Hollenbeck restored by a German gunsmith.

I have a Hollenbeck 12/12 over 25-25 Stevens, which took me a while to figure out since there is no marking as to what caliber the rifle is. With a 30-30, your Hollenbeck is much more practical than mine, and I suspect that you will find that it is fairly accurate and fun to shoot. By the way, the lever in front of the trigger guard is to cock the rifle, then you use the front trigger to fire it.

Good advice from Keith, and I have been looking for a gunsmith who will work on Hollenbecks. Since Jerry Andrews is from Moundsville, WV, he probably has seen and worked on a number of Hollenbecks.

If you can, post some photos of your Hollenbeck when it arrives.


ColinM

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A little hard work never hurt anyone -- but why risk it?

I would encourage you strongly to use and enjoy your gun. I would also encourage you to go as lightly as you can on modifications and loads. I would shoot reduced recoil .30-30 loads if you can find them. I have shot my Hollenbeck a in 32-40 and 30-30 very casually. However in 25-35 I spent A LOT of effort working up a load and figuring it out. I found the gun to be VERY sensitive to presssure and what I thought were very light starting loads were too much for it in the long run.
I shoot it. I love it. I would never discourage anyone from using one but I hesitate to plunk factory loads in it. Even though we all think .30-30 is a light round.

Thank you Researcher for that catalog page. Note the Grade 1 was listed with "Crescent Steel" barrels. I have not previously seen that name. Was it listed in the Hollenbeck Gun Co. or 1905-1908 Three-Barrel Gun Co. catalogs?

Crescent advertised "Decarbonized Armory Steel" barrels from introduction of the Model 0 in 1897 until the mid-1920s.

Composition analysis by Optical Emission Spectroscopy (OES) showed c. 1900 Crescent �Wilson�s Welded Steel� to be Bessemer Rephosphorized Carbon Steel (similar to AISI 1017) with a Tensile Strength of 66,000 psi.

c. 1925 Crescent Fire Arms �Genuine Armory Steel� barrel with the �LLH� mark of Laurent Lochet-Habran was Rephosphorized AISI 1040 Carbon Steel with a measured Tensile Strength of 104,000 psi.

At the time 1518 was made, our North American ammunition companies were offering loaded 12-gauge paper shells in 2 5/8, 2 3/4, 2 7/8 and 3-inch lengths. Popular new shotguns of the time like Remington's John M. Browning designed Remington Autoloading shotgun and their John D. Pedersen designed Remington Repeating Shotgun and Winchesters Model 1897 were made for 2 3/4 inch 12-gauge shells.

One and 1 1/8 ounce loads were offered in the 2 5/8 inch shell and the 1 1/4 ounce loads were offered in the 2 3/4 inch and longer shells. In those days, the longer 2 7/8 and 3-inch shells didn't carry heavier loads than were offered in the 2 3/4 inch shells, but offered more/better wadding which many serious trap and live pigeon shooters believed important. The heaviest 12-gauge loads offered from the late 1890s to the early 1920s, 3 1/2 drams of bulk smokeless powder or 28-grains of dense smokeless powders such as Infallible or Ballistite pushing 1 1/4 ounces of shot produced higher pressures then modern SAAMI specs. The high velocity, progressive burning powder, loads were still thirteen years in the future when 1518 was built.

The Royal Gun Co. catalog states on page 12 --

Shot barrels are bored on the latest improved taper system for shooting all grades of smokeless powder.

I can't find any mention of shot barrel chamber length in any of my Hollenbeck, Three-Barrel or Royal Gun Co. catalogs. The hang tag for 1771 a Grade 2, 12 x 12 x.25-35, lists the load it was targeted with as 3 1/8 drams of bulk smokeless pushing 1 1/4 ounce of #7 1/2 shot, a very popular trap load until the ATA limited loads to 1 1/8 ounce beginning April 1940. Our North American ammunition companies were only offering that load in a 2 3/4 inch shell.

Despite what the Royal Gun Co. catalogs recommended 100 years ago, I would be very reluctant to feed one of these guns such a stout diet no matter what condition it was in. A lot of manufacturers claimed that their guns could digest the heaviest loads and kill ducks and geese at exaggerated and extreme ranges. And a lot of those guns were shot loose and beat to death and are no longer functional. There is advertising hype, and there is the test of time. The test of time never lies when it comes to durability of vintage guns. Marks_21 is one of the guys here who has a good deal of actual experience with these, and if he says standard .30-30 loads may be too hot for this design, I'd be inclined to follow his advice. I'd also stay with reduced shotgun loads to protect the stock wood from recoil damage. Recoil is a function of shot weight and velocity. Heavy loads at higher velocities produce more recoil. As for the stock design and the soundness of 100 year old wood, here's what gunsmith Brian Dudley had to say in another thread about these Hollenbeck designed drillings:



Brian Dudley has enough practical experience as a gun stocker to know which guns are vulnerable to stock damage.

The 1907 Three-Barrel Gun Co. catalog says "Damascus or Imported steel" for the Grade 0. The 1908 Three-Barrel Gun Co. catalog says "Crescent Steel" for the Grade 0. All of the Grade 0 listings in the ledger have either K or D in the steel column up through serial number 841. Beginning with serial number 842 we start seeing an S in the Steel column and still some Ds for the Grade 0. Beginning with serial number 1318 we begin seeing Ks in the Steel column for Grade 0s again as well as lots of Damascus barrel Grade 0s?!? In looking through these columns I found a W in the Steel column for serial number 851 which is listed as a Grade 5 which went to VL&A 6-24-07!! Want to see it.

Thank you.
Will do more looking into "Crescent Steel"