doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DIY Gunsmithing @ doublegunshop.com Damascus process failing

Hello All. I was having respectable success last year with refinishing damascus and twist barrels. It took more work since I'm not set up for logwood, but things were fine. Now they are not.

Several people I've spoken to, and read about, use the method of browning to develop contrast: rust, cold water or dry card, rust, card, rust, card, etc. until you start to get pattern. When you get the contrast you want, you convert to black oxide. I'm not getting the pattern development that others seems to get following the same process, so when I convert (steam), I end up with a lovely black barrel, and whatever contrast was there is gone. All of this is prior to etching, but I would expect that contrast would remain after conversion, since it was present prior. Even Dr. Gaddy was using the same process in one of his iterations.

I am not convinced that the rusting/carding process prior to conversion is effecting the iron content more than steel, which should develop the contrast, nor have I figured out why it's not. Perhaps I'm not rusting long enough and short cycling the rust development on the iron. Maybe it's a solution dilution issue.

My solution is Laurel Mtn., which is commonly used.

If any of you who've dealt with any similar situation were willing to share you experience, I would appreciate. It is a realistic pursuit of mine to start doing this for a living. I'm just trying to make a few barrels around look better, mostly a neat Washington patterned Levefer G grade of my own. If I can't get it right, I'll need to send it to one of you guys who can. This pattern is awesome and needs to show.

Thanks.

I've never seen any real contrast to speak of once the barrels have been through a number of rusting and carding passes. You have rusted and browned both the steel and the iron. Any initial contrast gets very muted or disappears altogether as the barrels become darker. Both rusted surfaces will convert to black during boiling if you are shooting for black and white, which is correct for a Lefever. Iron rusts easily, and it is the iron content of the steel that oxidizes to become hydrated ferric oxide, or common red rust. The contrast is brought out during etching with ferric chloride solution. A lot can go wrong during etching. I feel it is better to use a weaker solution because going a bit too strong, or a bit too long can remove a lot of what you worked so hard to achieve. Even using a vertical tank for etching can be a problem because the end that goes in first is the end that comes out last. That extra few seconds can lead to less contrast on that end of the tubes. You also have to work quickly to rinse and neutralize the ferric chloride solution after your etch cycle, because it is still working to remove rust until you rinse and rub it off the surface.

One thing you will learn is that there are no perfect instructions that work with all steels and all barrels under all atmospheric conditions. You will have to constantly adapt to find what works best on a particular set. What works great in a humid week in August may be a problem during cold dry winter months. You can learn a lot by experimenting with some pieces of junk Damascus barrels, by trying different rusting solution, different rusting times, use of a pre-etch prior to rusting, different concentrations of ferric chloride, different etch times, and varying when you etch after so many passes etc. Unless you are doing this all the time, it helps to keep a notebook of what worked and what didn't. When you screw up, you can strip and redo your short section of junk barrels rather than messing up Grandpa's Lefever or Parker. There is a very good reason why it costs upwards of $300.00 for a nice rust blue job on a set of barrels. The materials are cheap as dirt, but the labor and learning curve is steep.

Everything Keith says,,,,
You have to etch the rusting cycle,,or the rusting and boiled cycle (depending on wether you are after brown/white or black/white).
The etch is what weakens the color layer from the steel (??) laminates of the make up of the twist and allows them to be carded off while the color stays put, for the most part, on the iron portions.
You do loose some off the iron with each etching also, that is why it's such a slow process to build up the final finish as compared to a simple rust blue or rust brown.

I use a less than 5% ferric chloride solution for the etch. Probably more like 3%. Nothing I mix is very precise but I know it's at least that weak. Too strong and it'll wipe off everything or most of it in a simple in-and-out immersion dunk in the stuff.

It takes some time to find a technique that works for you. It might not be the text book written instructions that someone else has provided.
Like so many other finishing processes, the variables are endless and the small little things we do w/o even thinking they may have anything to do with success or failure often really do.

I think the biggest obstacle to me is environmental. I have a garage, unheated, shared with a Ford, three bikes, and three kayaks, and bunch of other stuff. I can't spread out with tanks, or dunk horizontally. Gaddy used a vertical approach, so I'll trust that will work well enough, and it did last year.

Temps and humidity levels cannot be regulated, and all else remains unchanged from last year, so I believe I'll need to limit this kind of work to the late-spring and summer months, unless I can find so other space to work in.

Planning to mix up a new batch of etchant. MG Chemicals ferric chloride solution is 37 to 42 % iron trichloride (FeCl3) and they do not recommend any dilution. Ignore their dilution caution or find something else? If something else, what is recommended? I am not a chemist, nor do I have access to one. Thanks.

I run a 29% fecl solution cut 9:1 or at just under 3% and have had issues with stronger solutions. I would dilute it if I were you.

I don�t have any problem ignoring them, just wondered what others do. I should know this, but don�t: what is the math behind figuring out the ratio for the solution based on % of concentration.

I'm not sure of the difference between fecl and fecl3 but I do not believe them to be the same.

I don't know either. What do you buy, and from where?

If you are not set up for rapid dip and then rinse, the weaker the solution, the longer time you have to work. Worst case is that you will need to dip twice or for a longer time.

I'm set with the quick dip and rinse. It's the weather that gets me, and I need to confirm I'm using the same solution others are using, and if not, get some.

I use 1 part circuit board etchant to 4-5 parts distilled water. Weaker may be better.

I use what's marketed as curcuit board etchant as well, but there seems to be FeCl and then FeCl3. Inconclusive if there is appreciable difference with this use.

don't know

They work the same as far as I've been able to tell.

The FeCl3 will heat up a bit when water is added to dilute it if you have a real strong % soln of it.
Not so much with anything under 50% to start with so most of the pre-mix circuit board FeCl3 doesn't show much reaction.

(I believe the warning not to dilute on the lable is about it's strength needed to do the copper etching work it is sold for.)

Some of the circuit board etch sold has a combination of FeCl AND Hydrochloric acid in it.
Probably a bit toothy for the damascus work.

Thanks All. I used baking soda to neutralize, but have read of Windex being used for blades. I like the idea of a spray bottle. Thoughts?

Things have improved significantly. I believe that in addition to the climate difficulties, I was also seriously under power with the solution mixture.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Hja4nbb7WpHvXOHjAZGA66QYva-Dg95p

Until I have a climate controlled space to work in, I'll still need to be careful about the variability of the weather.

Looks great Bill!

That is up there with the best. Lots of contrast.

Bill:

That was a very nice result indeed.

Rem

Thank you all for your feedback. Still have tweaks to make, so will keep practicing.