doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com German Trade Gun ??

Just picked up this 16 g ejector German Trade gun-
No serial no. , just the proof dates and gauge/chamber markings with Simson and Schilling indicators. Any speculation on how this gun came to be?
Lunchbox gun hidden away from Nazi takeover of Simson?
What does the " 2" on the watertable and forearm metal refer to? W on the barrel and the small "L" marks ?
No makers buttplate, just a grooved horn material. Stock has normal dings, dents , but the metal work , all screws and bores are in great shape.
Best Regards,
JBP

wow!

wonderful gun...

wonderful photography...

thank you for this thread...

Three triangles with S is Simson trademark though the 'S' is usually contained inside the middle triangle. Wonderful gun with outstanding engraving.

Sure looks like one gun of a multi-gun set.

The 2 on the action, forearm, and barrel
so as not to confuse it with like components
from the #1 gun.

The W and other marks are most likely the tube makers

Mike

That would be my guess too. That gun is of high enough quality to be one of a pair. But odd that it isn't marked 2 on the outside, as is typical on pairs.

That's beautiful. I love the oak leaves...very Teutonic.

I love the barrel wedges!
Karl

Very nice indeed.
A busy days hunting in the engraving alone.
O.M

These are much better photos than on the other thread. The Simmons logo is clear now. The barrels are marked 16/70 and the action shows a 16/70 on each side of the water table. There is a 16.70( note the period). This is confusing. If there were 16 months in a year, I would say it is a date. I believe it is a post war, East German gun and I am not as "up on" East German marks as I would like to be.
Mike

A very nice quality sideplayed boxlock. I have one similar to it in 12g, but it was a Merkel action and it has fine engraving instead of the deep relief.
I am surprised that given the high quality of the build that it does not have a makers name on it.

I assumed the 0533 would be the date code: May , 1933.

Nominal 16 gauge bore size of .662" = 16.8 mm so 16.7 mm would only be .1 mm undersized, though this would not normally be expected to be found on the action flats, only on the barrels forward of the flats. Are there any bore size markings there?

No, but �70� is stamped on the face of the ejector flanges that contact the breech face.
JBP

From what I see, I would guess it to be a end of the War example, possible offered by Otto Reif, but more than likely made by Edgar Strempel. Either Otto Reif, Edgar Strempel or both had access or a store of Simson components that they used to fill orders. this one seems to be cobbled together from surplus parts and that might explain the odd Schilling forge mark on the water-table.

The chamber & cartridge length are present but few, if any actual official proofmarks. There are some very worn marks just forward of the breech with one be a W.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=300183&page=1

Info on post WWII marks:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=261946#Post261946

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

It is an amazing gun probably from a set. Thanks for sharing

I think I shall open up the side plates and see what lies beneath....any predictions?
JBP

Wood. And some hidden hammer screws.

I find that the sideplated boxlocks are a very stable configuration. Because under the plate there is a good square surface for recoil. Vs the more typical scalloped actions which can suffer from chipping and stress cracking over time.

I'm backing Raimey, "Otto Reif, but more than likely made by Edgar Strempel."

Although I've never heard of those two but would like too.

As it appears this is a custom gun, built from Schilling, Simson Parts, Krupp best steel tubes, what model of the major Suhl players would it most resemble or be patterned after ( equivalent to?)��Heym mo. 4,5?, Sauer mo. 40, 45 ? ( did Sauer make any with side plates?) Simson mo._______?

Does the engraving style point to Kolb?

Did Strempel have his own favored style or build that he was identified with?

Best Regards,
JBP

I have absolutely zero books on the German gun makers. A big error on my part.

Fabulous engraving. I'd never have thought of the idea of using a sounder of pigs to flush woodcock. GLS should take notice...Geo

It is human nature to try to correct someone when they're wrong. I have planted faux information in the past to entice people to address posters question when there were no responses. It is very effective technique.

In my opinion, Edgar Strempel was the Post WWI equivalent of H.A. Lindner. Eye of quality for sure.


http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post233900

"And with Axle's input of the Robert Eblen sourcing of Edgar Strempel, it just may be that in the late 1920s, or by at least 1930, post WWI the next truly exceptional mechanic with an eye for quality like H. Scherping, H.A. Lindner, etc. is in fact Edgar Stremple. Info in quite elusive for the moment but it would seem he cottons to the side frame reinforcement and post WWII must have had a stash of Simson components, with which he was able thru B�Hag( sales co-op B�chsenmacher Handels Gesellschaft) was able to offer upper rung offerings. Seems he was active till 1970 or the mid 1970s and was sourced by Heinrich M�nch of Aachen at some point. I'll have to closely smoke over Heinrich M�nch's examples for similarities."

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post275290

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post367722

Not sure who performed the tap, tap, tap, but I'll see what I can ferret out along those lines.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

"












Edgar Strempel Suhl(Stre Su) that experienced proof in June 1964. Anyone consider it anything more than a production longarm?"

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=367722&page=4

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

1955 Edgar Stremple.


Might be the same engraver as below?? No, closer inspection negates the possibility of a sideplated example. Locks have a different pin configuration from below and the term orig.(original) is not persent.





Tale purported by listing on Edgar Strempel, Suhl 1955 example

"he(Strempel) made guns for the Soviet leaders. The consignor's notes state that Edgar Strempel employed and/or worked closely with 2 of the most famous European engravers- Karl Kolb and Richard Schilling, the well known and sought after locksmith Guido Kessel and the best actioner August Wuelfing. The stock was made by Ernst and Karl Roell. Walter Schilling was the metal finisher/bluer. The consignor's notes also state that this shotgun was probably made for Nikolai Bulganin who became Chairman of the Council of People's Commissars of the Russian SFSR in 1955. Somehow this shotgun came into possession of Leonid Brezhnev after he became the leader of the Soviet Union in 1964. This shotgun was possibly confiscated from Bulganin after he fell into disgrace and was excluded from the Central Communist Party. Brezhnev then made a gift of this shotgun to the then President of the Soviet Armenian Republic, Anton Kochinyan during a state visit to Armenia In 1969."

Subject longarm:













Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Just to singularly note the top-shelf mechanics were who were associated w/ Edgar Strempel:

"The consignor's notes state that Edgar Strempel employed and/or worked closely with 2 of the most famous European engravers- Karl Kolb and Richard Schilling, the well known and sought after locksmith Guido Kessel and the best actioner August Wuelfing. The stock was made by Ernst and Karl Roell. Walter Schilling was the metal finisher/bluer. "

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Rainey,
I cannot access your photobucket images. What kind of guns are shown, and how do they compare with my new acquisition ( the subject longarm)?
Thank you,
Best Regards,
JBP

One is a sideplated but I guess I was more or less comparing the engraving. See you email account for a couple images.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

The barrel flats, of which we only see a little bit, do show a "16/70", telling me this is a 2 3/4 inch chambered 16 ga. My 1979 Simson shows 12/70 on the flats, in addition to the proof date and the Suhl proofhouse marks. If we could see the whole of the barrel flats, that would surely help a lot.
I'm halfway betting there are no Suhl proofhouse marks, which would reinforce the supposition of Otto Reif's involvement.

I'm aware of an incident where the pilot of a UH-1 used his helicopter to encourage a sounder of wildschwein through a battalion bivouac, flushing many groundpounders.

Hilarity ensued.

Not immediately, I'd guess...Geo

I'm told the folks in the helo were laughing their heads off watching it unfold.

Portion of barrel flats as requested:
I�ll get more complete photos tomorrow.

Well, about all I can tender for now is that the tube effort was by a W mechanic. I can't make out the other marks on the underside of the left tube. Again, the S in a Chevron is in an odd location. I for one just don't see any Suhl proofmarks. So it must have been cobbled together by a mechanic who had access to a stash of Simson components at the end of WWII. But I still contend that either Edgar Strempel, Otto Reif or both were involved.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Dave,
Go back to the first page, the right hand side shows both 16/70 and 16.70.
Mike