doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com French 16 ga. with rifled barrel

French 16 ga. Looks very much like a Manufrance gun. Right barrel rifled with right hand twist.Left barrel smooth. I've seen many French guns but none with rifling. Serial # 78262 on fore end, no # on any other part.Modest engraving. Info appreciated.

Photos of proof marks, barrel flats, water table, key, chambering marks, etc. would help. Please. Naturabuy.Fr has a number of French shotguns with rifling.

Canon raye. Becassier (spelling?). Creates spreader patterns for woodcock...Geo

Yep. Just as Geo says, rifled to disperse shot at under 15 m.
Would love to see pix & details on your fusil becassier!

Its as GN says, raye bored, if only near the muzzle.

In the FWIW dept. there are several dif. rifled shotgun bbls.

1) Gauge bored w/which I have zero experience aside from having seen some interesting specimens.

2) raye bored; a uniquely French approach to wood cock. note: a long time ago I used to get a rise here ref.in' it as a ortolon boring, but too many knew the real drill;-)

3) paradox guns, used to impart a spin for stabilization of slugs and balls used against dangerous game

4) diffusion type or rifled screw-in chokes

In my experience, raye bores and the rifled or diffusion type screw-in chokes all yield IC percentage patterns when using plastic wads and that would be my expectation w/the gun you describe from its rifled bbl.

Should you buy it and find otherwise, would be much interested in knowing about that.

I would love to see it

That number, if an Ideal, would put it with only 367 other Ideals made in 1939, with WWII already pounding on the door. There may not have been time to put much engraving on.

You state no other markings/numbers- I would be surprised if the finished bore diameters, in mm, are absent from the tubes just ahead of the flats.


Mike

Particularly likely that it's a woodcock version (becassier) if the barrels are short and the gun is light. The French seem to specialize in that particular setup, although I've seen some Italian guns with one barrel that has dispersion rifling.

Guns International 100943538 shows barrels of sample gun from muzzle end. While the gun doesn't show being shot much Interestingly previous owner used very tightly choked left barrel more than rifled right tube.

I would LOVE to hear/see some empirical evidence from paper patterning of one of these barrels versus a cylinder bore or improved cylinder choke. Please, please, please, if someone has one, could you post pattern-board pictures of one of the pattern from one of these barrels versus the other open chokes (or lack thereof)?


These guns seem to be a white buffalo of sorts for me. Finding one with good condition, but also for the right price is seemingly a difficult challenge given the small sample of these guns that made it to our shores here in the US.

Yes, it would be interesting to see what happen if modern shell with plastic shot cup if fired through that gizmo.

Here's an advertiser's claim:

Goggle these terms to take a look at what is available on the French Market - most are o/u. "fusil de chasse" becassier juxtapose canon ray� naturabuy

Here is a Saint Etienne shotgun "artisanal" which might be similar to what you're looking at:






Fusils Juxtapos�s calibre 12
Marque : Favier
Etat de l'objet : d'occasion
D�tentes : Double d�tente
Type d'�jection : Extracteurs
Chambrage : 70 mm
Arme pour droitier ou gaucher : Droitier
Longueur de crosse : 370
Poids : 2760
Longueur de canon : 60 cm
Chokage ou chokes fournis : Lisse, Ray�
Epreuve bille d'acier : Non
Garantie : non
Artisanal Favier sur syst�me Helice , B�cassier canons Heurtier de 60 lisse et ray� ,bronzage patin� mais tr�s correct ;un leger manque ancien � la crosse voir image
canons mirroir , fusil en tr�s bon �tat de fabrication artisanale , fusil agr�able et qui monte facilement
�change possible contre juxtapos�s artisan cal 16 crosse anglaise ou fusil de fosse ou centrale + collier rep�rage ( jag)

A few years back, some OU's with one barrel that had dispersion rifling were imported to the States. They were Italian, but I can't remember who made them. We had one, 20ga, in our Ruffed Grouse Society sponsor drawing. Barrels were about 24", IIRC. I also have a Verney-Carron catalog from 1999 showing that they offered them (OU only) back then. (At that time, they were no longer making sxs. Instead, the sxs offered in their catalog were being made for them elsewhere in the European Union. Two models, one of which looked very Spanish, the other German.) They're now back in the higher dollar sxs business, having acquired Demas a few years ago and basically producing those guns as a "custom shop" product. Don't know whether they currently offer any "becassier" sxs models.

The French maker was Gaucher.

Larry,

Are you talking about the Fabarm Paradox?

Wouldn't the use of shot cups negate much of the pellet dispersion the rifling was intended to produce?

Joe,

This is exactly what I would love to know if anyone owns one of these shotguns and can show pattern results.

It was a Fabarm, although I don't recall that it had "Paradox" marked on it. We tested one, and it did throw an extremely open pattern through the rifled barrel, even with standard US ammo with a plastic wad.