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Do typical chambers meant for 12ga brass shells differ in diameter from chambers made for current production 12ga shells?

Chambers were normally the same for both. Some early guns made especially for brass shells had oversize bores. I have heard of, but never encountered, a few very early guns made with under size chambers for a special brass shell which would use the ordinary 12 gauge wads rather than oversize wads. As the ordinary brass shells with their over size wads could be readily used in guns having standard bores, this alternative didn't last long.

Brass shells, marked '12A', are the same size as the paper or plastic shells. The '12B' is smaller than the '12A'. I had specimens of both in my collection, but, am not aware of any special markings on guns specifying either size shell.

Thanks to all for providing insights. I have what was believed to be an English 12ga, that 12ga will not chamber a 12ga plastic hull shell.

Thinking that perhaps it�s really a 16ga, I tried a shell. The rim of a 16ga shell will stop the shell from falling all the way into the barrel, and is very loose in the chamber. A 16ga chamber gauge will pass the forcing cones.

The gun is a William Ford �Eclipse� BLNE, made after 1875 from what I understand, and would like to figure out what it shoots.

14ga?

maybe its a 14 gauge chambered gun?

14ga is what I would think. No experience with 14ga, or know of anyone around who could confirm it. I would expect 14ga would be pretty expensive ammunition, if it could be found.

RMC will make you 14 bore brass shells:

http://www.rockymountaincartridge.com/in...ts%20Prices.pdf

Thanks. I�ll let the next owner do that, but wanted to get an idea of what it is.

If you like the gun, consider getting custom chamber reducers made for it.

Send me a pm w address. I'll send the you 2 old Eley paper 14 ga hulls. You'll know for sure.
I have 2 14 ga guns and no ammo, a few hulls, but not enough for a round of skeet.
The last 14s I saw for sale were Eley papers from the 50s at $75 a box.

Joe in Charlotte

Somewhere in these pages I seem to recall modifying 16 ga to 14 ga by increasing the od of the hull using tape warped to fill the space. Would not paper hulls from Chedite cut to 2.5 inches and wrapped be possible? (probably work with plastic hulls as well). I'd use black powder and 7/8 oz shot. Card and fiber filler. A little pricy but the RMC brass hulls, about 30 would make for practical field use. Like making and using pin fire hulls for those guns.

Yes, gunmaker from Birmingham made some kind of chamber-less fowling gun called the 'Altro' designed for thin brass shells. I have only seen pictures, but it would seem cartridge case dimensions for it would be a lot different from standard offerings.

J, your example of chamberless fowling gun is not of much use for the question asked. Chamber-less gun are relatively rare and not a standard chamber per the question asked.

2 piper hit it on the head. The relative chamber sizes were not different for early Breech loaders whether they fired all brass and paper and brass hulls. While some chambers are narrower than others it is not because they are meant specifically for brass hull..

Sounds to me that your gun may well be a 14G brass case gun. W Ford was a recognised specialist maker of "fowling/pigeon guns, in which category your gun may fall. If you measure (gauge) the barrels at 9" from breech this will confirm whether the gun is a true 14 gauge or if it was built as a thin brass case gun, in which case the barrels will be 12 bore... designated as 14/12. Thin brass case 12 bores had 12 bore chambers and 10 bore barrel... known as 12/10.
Hope this helps.

If the bore is 14ga what should the measurements read at 9" from the breech?

16 gauge card & fiber wads would be unlikely to give a good seal in a 14 gauge barrel, & this would be particularly true should it turn out to be bored oversize for brass shells.

14 gauge = .693"; 14/1 = .701" & 13 = .710".
15 gauge = .677" & 15/1 = .685"

16 gauge = .662" & 16 gauge card & fiber wads have an OD of around +.020" or about .682". One can thus see they aren't going to seal in a .693" or larger bore.

Why not buy some 14 gauge brass shotshells while they are available?

http://www.rockymountaincartridge.com/index_htm_files/RMC%20Product%20List.pdf

14 Gauge 2 1/2" $75.00 10/Box
14 Gauge 2 5/8" $77.00 10/Box

Having considered your dilemma a bit further, I think that you will have to take a series of internal diameter measurements of the chamber and the barrel to try and unravel the conundrum.
W Ford the gunmaker was a renowned barrel borer and known for making "specials". Around 1880 he advocated reworking of chamber, cone and barrel forward of the normal position of the cone in converting paper-case chambered guns to brass-case guns - a rather controversial method, considered by others as likely to render the gun "out of proof".
By doing the measurements you may get some insight as to whether the gun was originally built as a brass-case ("chamberless") gun or if it is a converted paper-case gun { assuming that the chamber and bore have not been "modified/cleaned-up/altered" at a later date, thereby only adding to the ??? history}.