doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com More of those vintage low pressure loads

A Winchester Factory Memorandum dated February 6, 1900
12g 2 5/8" Leader with 1 oz. shot
40 gr. DuPont Bulk = 3 1/4 Dr. Eq. = 2.7 tons/sq. inch = 7952 psi (using Burrard's conversion formula)
42 gr. Laflin & Rand Bulk = 3 1/2 Dr. Eq. = 3.3 tons = 9968 psi
12g 2 5/8" Leader with 1 1/8 oz. shot
40 gr. DuPont Bulk = 3 1/4 Dr. Eq. = 3.9 tons = 11,984 psi

G.T. Teasdale-Buckell, Experts on Guns and Shooting, 1900
https://books.google.com/books?id=P7UrAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA235
1 1/8 oz. load comparisons. Pressure converted used Burrard�s formula
42 gr. = 3 Dram Bulk Nitro � 1� chamber pressure 7,920 psi / MV 1208 fps
45 1/2 gr. = 3 1/4 Dram � 9,730 psi / MV 1,274
49 gr. = 3 1/2 Dram � 11,780 psi / 1,328 fps

�The Long 20 Bore Cartridge�, The Field in Forest & Stream, October 17, 1908
https://books.google.com/books?id=ejQevDPMUIYC&pg=PA630
2 3/4� case with �Schultze� Bulk Smokeless (42 gr = 3 Dr. Eq.)
The standard 2 1/2� case was loaded with 33 gr. �Schultze� = 2.36 Dr. Eq. (about 2 3/8) with 13/16 oz. shot.
U.S. 7/8 oz. 2 1/2 Dr. Eq. BULK Smokeless pressures were 8000-9000 psi.
36 gr. = 2.57 Dr. Eq. with 15/16 oz. = 4.65 tons = 14,504 psi (using Burrard�s formula) / 20 yd. velocity 1000 fps
37 gr. = 2.64 Dr. Eq. with 7/8 oz. = 4.54 tons = 14,134 psi / 1040 fps
35 gr. = 2.5 Dr. Eq. with 13/16 oz. = 3.45 tons = 10,472 psi / 1068 fps

14,504 psi ....................dang, that's smokin'.

SRH

drew: your library of shotgun related info continues to amaze...thank you...

I'd wonder about the good Burrard's formula.
36 gr. = 2.57 Dr. Eq. with 15/16 oz. = 4.65 tons = 14,504 psi (using Burrard�s formula) / 20 yd. velocity 1000 fps

That much PSI for that little powder and shot and such low fps seems sort of an improbable combination.

I've been spending a lot of time looking at low pressure loads and many of these certainly stand out as outliers.

Once you clear 10,000 psi, you start bumping up against the service pressure ceiling for CIP "standard proof" guns. 14,000 is well over our own SAAMI max service pressure--and in fact exceeds CIP "standard" PROOF pressure!

Drew, I've followed your pressure postings and they seem to equal modern psi data. Still why would one want to subject 100 to 140 year old wood to that high pressure when there are plenty of under 8000 or 7000 psi loads at 1180 to 1220 fps that perform nicely on clays or in the field? I like the wood on my old guns and would hate to have them come apart with those pressures. Not being critical but just asking why.

No wood is exposed to chamber pressure. The only thing that can harm the old wood is recoil. Pressures and recoil are not necessarily synonymous. Higher pressure can well mean higher recoil, but it is not the pressure itself that does the wood harm.

SRH

Lighter shot loads, or lower velocity, will reduce recoil which will reduce stock stress. From a particle viewpoint a simple one ounce load at 1100-1150 fps is a reasonable standard load for almost all my double gun needs.

People need to stop thinking low pressure covers everything. Low peak pressure may be higher pressure near the muzzle, than slightly faster burning loads. And some of the low pressure generate much higher velocity which generates more recoil which is counter to why many shoot low pressure loads in the first place. Nothing is s free so faster still stresses old guns just as much as heavy loads ever did. Just use common sense and be kind to these old guns.

I don't think the purpose of Drews' post was to say it's alright to load at high pressures. He was just showing some loads were higher than we're use to thinking they were. Most the general public thinks all the old loads were low pressure - ain't so.

In 1897, Charles Grimm used a 7 3/4# L.C. Smith with 3 3/4 Dr. Eq. Bulk Smokeless (1330 fps) 1 1/4 oz. load, with about 30 ft/lbs. of free recoil.
1 oz. at 1180 fps (2 3/4 Dram) in a 7.5 pound shotgun = 17.3 ft/lbs

I don't have a period pressure report for that load, but 1 1/4 oz. 3 1/2 Dr. Eq. with Bulk Smokeless was about 11,750 psi. The modern SSAMI recommended limit is 11,500 psi.
The 12g �Super-X Field� 2 3/4� 1 1/4 oz. 3 3/4 Dr. Equiv. with DuPont Progressive Burning Oval was just below 11,500 psi

Regarding the loads we should use today, in our 110 year old doubles (my youngest was made in 1906) please see "Shotshells and Shooting" here
http://lcsca.clubexpress.com/content.aspx?page_id=274&club_id=43784&sl=798958091

At the 1901 GAH at Live Birds Harold Money was using a Parker with 1 1/4 oz. shot and 52 1/2 gr. �E.C.� = 3 3/4 Dr. Eq. = 1330 fps
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1901/VOL_37_NO_03/SL3703012.pdf
In an 8# gun that would be 29 ft/lbs of free recoil

Apparently he was sometime thereafter knocked into sensibility
Sporting Life, Nov. 8, 1913 Opinions regarding limiting loads to 1 1/8 oz. 3 Dr. Eq.
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1913/VOL_62_NO_10/SL6210022.PDF
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1913/VOL_62_NO_10/SL6210019.PDF
Frank Butler � �Let me say that the shooter can break targets with a three dram one and. one-eighth load if he holds right. Harold Money, who traveled as a professional for years, always used three drams Schultze Powder and one and one-eighth shot.�

In 1919 the Executive Committee of the American Trapshooting Association voted on whether to establish the standard load a 1 1/8 oz. 3 Dr. Eq. The proposal failed.
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/BBM/1919/bbm231v.pdf

Arms and The Man, August 2, 1919
https://books.google.com/books?id=TBofKvr1Fi4C&pg=PA377&lpg

and the hard life of a Parker Professional Representative

Sporting Life, February 19, 1898
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1898/VOL_30_NO_22/SL3022020.pdf
A. W. Du Bray, traveling representative of Parker Gun has been making his usual trip through the South. Writing from Lake Charles. La., he says: "I have just had two days of shooting here in company with my good friend. Mr. J. C. Elstner, of this place. On the first day we bagged 47 quail and snipe and on the second day 107, of which 18 were quail, the rest snipe. So many people are constantly in quest of information regarding good shooting territory that I think you would be doing your readers a favor by publishing this. Quail are very abundant here, and one can bag from 25 to 50 a day over a good dog. Snipe are nearly always found, but of course not with is much certainty.
On the last day�s shooting I used very heavy full-choke Parker, 16 gauge, loaded with three drams Du Pont smokeless and one ounce No. 8 1/2 chilled shot in 2 7/8 inch U. M. C. Smokeless shell. It was certainly a great load for wild birds. Ducks, geese, cranes and prairie chickens are found near here.


16g 1 oz. 2 3/4 Dr. Eq. Bulk Smokless (1220 fps) was about 8500 psi.

Sporting Life, Dec. 4 1897
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1897/VOL_30_NO_11/SL3011024.pdf
J.D. Gay...used a Parker gun, 4 drams Hazard "Blue Ribbon" (Bulk) smokeless, in Leader shells, a Winchester factory load.