doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com CSMC 20 gauge Revelation Over/Under Shotgun

Has anyone seen this shotgun?
Anyone know anything about them?
Pete

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=500191#Post500191
JR

Wow they are pretty!!

TM

Now.....if they would only offer it in 16 gauge.

I've handled two in their showroom. Very nicely balanced, it's a field grade Inverness. I think they are only going to sell them directly--not through dealers--to keep the price down. Hard to beat at $1995. Being totally made here in the States, I would definitely choose it over Beretta 687 or Rizzini BR110. The same gunsmiths making the A-10s and other guns are making these -- for a fraction of the price. Looks like the supply is going to be very low due to demand. Lou said he's getting lots of interest without much marketing yet.

it looks like the inverness...what is the difference, besides price?

Where is the .410?

It is an Inverness. Same action without all the embellishments.

Having shot the pudding out of a 20 ga. 687 SPII Sporting for over 14 years, including doves in Cordoba twice, I'd be very interested in hearing why you would choose the Revelation over it.

Is it just because it is made in the USA?

SRH

yes..

FYI, it is a direct copy of the round body Rizzini Inverness.

How bad could that be? If I didn't already have a 687/30", I'd be interested in one of these. Nice range of options at that price point.

I shouldn't have been so dismissive. Nothing against either -- I've owned and shot guns from both makers and they've held up well. I'm not a high-volume shooter like you are. But I like the quality, craftsmanship and ethos of CSMC. All the guns are made right there. You can meet the people who personally made them. Those same gunsmiths are also making the A-10, Foxes, 21s and now they are making this one. It also follows the same story of the Trojan and the Sterlingworth. I don't mean to disparage Cabelas or Dick's but they're big box stores without any personality selling new guns that reflect the same. CSMC isn't perfect but they make good, if not excellent guns, and now they are making a very good one for the same or less money as the big mass-market companies. I know CSMC has a long and controversial story on this site, but I think they are accomplishing that no other manufacturer is still able to do: make high-quality guns, with much of the work still by hand, here in the US. And they don't have all the marketing budgets and big name reputation as the others. Part of owning a gun is buying into the story behind it. CSMC has a pretty good one.

I should also correct my earlier statement as it having the same action as the Inverness. There are some differences, shorter top and bottom tangs and a slightly different fit to the stock. Other than that, the only difference I can see is fit and finish.

This base model Inverness is a good-looking alternative to similar-priced Berettas and Brownings, and maybe Guerinis, although CSMC may have the upper hand price-wise when you consider looks. Performance remains to be seen, as all the others are more of a known quantity, even though the Inverness has been out for several years.

Stan makes a good point about reliability comparison with a Beretta SPII. I doubt there is a more reliable o/u ever made than the 680 series from Beretta.

I've had many CSMC shotguns since the RBL20 was introduced, one A10 12 ga. and several RBL12's. Every one of the RBL's went back with problems, and the A10 broke both mainsprings from heavy use at Sporting clays. They sent me two new springs for the A10 which I replaced, and the RBL's all were fixed quickly and perfectly, no questions asked other than "how do you want us to do this?" Just know that CSMC products require some caveats and understanding, but they are unique, attractive, durable, and well-designed guns. I would not discourage anyone from buying this gun at this price, but I would strongly suggest going with the wood upgrade for the nominal extra cost.

In the long haul, you will probably be very happy with this gun at this price.
JR

Well said, Vikingny. I agree completely.
JR

I just ordered one yesterday. This thread has been very helpful as was my short email conversation with Rick. I did ask for the wood upgrade. I was told that it should ship in three weeks.

Question, is the Revelation price point CSMC introductory price? After x number of guns or time will the price increase as it did with the RBL, A10 and Inverness? I agree it's a great price point and it's made here in the United States. I do enjoy my RBL.

Alder Adder, please post some pictures when it arrives. Thanks

If so, they haven't mentioned it. v

Will do.

Just to be fair to all involved, I have additional information that might be useful. I have been contacted by someone who has a CSMC made M 21. He bought it new himself, and had to return it fourteen times to attempt to get defects, and damages incurred while under the care of CSMC, repaired and put right. He emailed me pictures and complete documentation of the 18 month ordeal. He finally sold the gun for 60% of the purchase price just to get rid of it.

I have first hand information of several RBLs that were problematic from new. Actually, I've never known of one, firsthand, that was without problems. I know there are many that will be espoused, but I'm reporting firsthand experiences, and reports from owners, only.

My take on all this ...........

(1) I appreciate that CSMC is American owned and operated. I do not know Tony, but I do know Lou, and consider him a friend.

(2) I know of many, many CSMC guns, of several "makes", that were problematic from new.

(3) I have never seen a new, defective, Beretta.

I just have to reason that where there's smoke, there's fire.

SRH

Pretty accurate summation, Stan. I knew Tony when knowing Tony meant nothing, haven't interacted with him in several years. Lou is a true friend and has helped me on numerous deals.

I've owned several RBL's in 20, 28 and 12 ga. The 20 Launch edition was a gorgeous gun and never gave any problems, but I only put less than 100 rounds through it. Sold the 28 not long after buying it, don't think I ever shot it once.

I've had 2 heavy-frame 32" 12 ga. RBL's, and both had issues that were fixed quickly and without further problems . Both are now in others' hands. I currently still own a 30" light frame 12 ga. RBL that is a killer gun and has been very reliable at doves and clays, so far...
JR

I really want CSMC to produce high quality American doubles. I may have given the impression that I have an axe to grind with them. That is the farthest thing from the truth. My dream gun is one of their 20 ga. Foxes. But, I just can't "pull the trigger" knowing what I do about so many guns that have left their shop not right, and how many times some of them have gone back to be fixed and were either damaged in the shop, not fixed properly, or both. I truly wish the company my best. They are building some beautiful guns.

SRH

It looks like it would be a viable alternative to second-hand Orvis-Ruger Red Label. The early ones with blackened frames usually had nice piece of wood on them.

From the catalog pictures, the Revelation appears to share at least the same trigger and floorplate as the M21 o/u that costs four times as much. Hmmm. Am I oversimplifying?

No, same basic gun. Cosmetic differences only. A Rizzini clone.
JR

I can say that the 21 O/U available through RGS has a very small grip. Too tight a radius for me. Seemed more for a lady truthfully.

For anybody who has handled the Revelation, or very similar Inverness, would anybody prefer the 30 inch barrel over the 28, and why?

I have had one in my hands and it looked very good and was good to shoot a few birds at skeet. This one had upgrade wood and I believe it was not very good. When you look at raw material costs the stock wood must have become the most expensive single item in a shotgun. Expect further decline in wood quality.

Bill

I have an Inverness with 30" barrels and I have shot it at sporting clays and quail. I love it and would buy it again. The wood is upgraded and is way beyond my expectation. I have not handled the Revelation but I assume it is the same gun with no engraving.

I think it is being offered at a reasonable price to raise money for whatever they are designing next just as many of their guns were offered at an original discount to bankroll their manufacture. Once they were in operation, the prices rose.

I have the straight grip model (Revelation) with 28" barrels. It weighs six pounds, even and balances an inch in front of the hingepin. If You were to order the 30" barrel version, it might balance a little better with the pistol grip, depending on what you like.

In late May 2018 I spoke to the factory. The gentleman said that they had sent a few upgrade wood version to folks who returned them, and they replaced the stocks to a higher standard, no charge. This was early on in production. They have since upgraded both the entry level wood and the standard wood.

He said they are made on the same production line by the same craftsmen who make the Inverness but leave out a few steps like engraving. He claimed the internal finish is the same. I'm about to get a 30" semi-pistol grip stock in standard grade. I will have it fitted and balanced to my dimensions. Even though it is a entry wood I have no problem with it. In fact, the "cult of wood" has gotten out of hand. Bespoke London guns have shiny stocks, etc.

BTW, alder adder, the English system of gunmakers balancing a gun is measured X.KK" in front of the front trigger, not the hinge pin.

I have spoken to one gunsmith of impeccable reputation who said they are indeed on a Rizzini action and are high quality. He has fitted quite a few for clients through his shop. He recommended it. I will also have him put an extra coat of lacquer on the case hardening.

Since most Italian guns are grossly over-priced, it is refreshing to see a sporting gun manufacturer in (now) anti-gun CT pick up the pieces.

Does anyone know how to dull the shiny finish on the stock? 0000 steel wool and some linseed oil? How about a 3M blue pad and linseed oil?

I use rottenstone and mineral oil, but I suspect wood ashes would work just as well?...Geo

A simple application of auto rubbing compound will break the shine and absolutely not damage the finish - not a guaranteed result with steel wool of any grade. I have no idea what is used to finish the wood but putting linseed oil on anything is waste of time and energy. My experience with the 3M products is one of inconsistency and resulting unfortunate and unexpected scratches.

I will try the auto Rubbing Compound. Any brand that you like?

I also have some rottenstone from Warthog buried somewhere as well as some "Rubbing Oil". Shall I try that instead of mineral oil?

I shall use 3M painters tape over the case hardened reciever, etc., unless you have a better suggestion to protect it.

The only reason I mentioned linseed oil was to lubricate the cutting action. Thank you both for your suggestions!

I use rottonstone and water. Works great. Mineral spirits would work just as well. Don't think I'd use linseed oil though it won't harm anything. Just harder to quickly see what progress is being made with oil residue on wood.

Som years back I managed to get my Grandfather's 12 ga Hammer Double. He was a Farmer, not a hunter so it was a "Farmer's Gun". Pre 1887 Birmingham black powder proof W Richards, side lever with back action locks. To put it mildly by the time it came to me it had been Rode Hard & Put Up Wet. It was/is purely a wall hanger with no value except sentimental To Me, about like what you see hanging over the mantle in a Cracker Barrel dining room.

Stock was grimy & Bleached to a near white. I took LINSEED OIL & 4/0 STEEL WOOL to it. Results were absolutely Amazing. The grime was cleaned off & the linseed brought the color back. I see a lot of new Expensive guns which have neither the color or figure of this old Hardware Store Farmer's Gun.

Steel Wool & Linseed Oil, Two Great Friends of Mine, like the Old Owl I don't really Give a Hoot what anyone else thinks of them.
As Clyde Barrow said in a letter to Ford Motor Co bragging on their old Flat Head V8, "Its Pulled Me Out of Many a Tight Spot". While I was not in the same kind of Tight Spot, Steel Wool & Linseed Oil has given me a lot of help on numerous occasions.

Please explain to me why CSMC charges hundreds of dollars of upcharge for the Lin Speed finish so the ultimate buyers can sand it out. Just a question. My Inverness probably has the Lin Speed finish, a very shiny finish that requires a lot of effort. I am not thinking I will mess with it. Just my opinion as a paying customer.

Birchwood Casey Stock Sheen and Conditioner works well to knock off the high gloss shine.

https://www.ebay.com/i/163086099844?chn=ps

It does exactly the opposite of what I always thought it was used for.

SRH

I like the finish on my Revelation the way it is. Very nice job.

It's not Lin Speed, Eightbore, it's Tru Oil, and it is a very nice built-up gloss finish. I think it looks great and it's a real shame to mess with it. My 30" barrelled RBL12 light frame has this finish and I would not think of "knocking it down" to a duller finish.

I have a couple of doubles that I have finished out to a soft satin sheen with boiled linseed and progressive sanding to a 1000 grit polish that are very nice. I wanted them different from a gloss finish. Both types of finishes please me, and I don't care to change one to the other.
JR

I received my Revelation about a month ago, but didn't shoot it until today. Got the 30 inch barrels and english stock, and I really like the balance and it fits me well. It smashed the clays. My only disappointment is I did purchase the wood upgrade, and it compares to my eye in no way with the quality of the upgrades I've seen with their RBL guns.

Call them and tell them you did not get a satisfactory upgrade.
JR

They have been replacing stocks for at least some unhappy upgraded wood purchasers and well they should. Keeping in mind that wood grade is somewhat subjective. It's certainly worth a try. From reports I have read on these guns, it sounds like they are really making an effort to keep folks happy.

To me it isn't worth the time and hassle to call, complain, ship, wait, hope the replacement is better, then get what you get.

CSMC should sure know what a suitable wood upgrade amounts to by now. Clearly they sent Bruce Buck a stock upgrade he gushed about in his review of the gun in Shooting Sportsman. This ain't that....

I feel it is just as important to let potential customers who aren't professional reviewers know what they should expect in a wood upgrade from CSMC these days... not much (unless they complain).

Call me old fashioned... I expect a Made in America product which targets the upper end of the available market, and asks you to pay an additional premium to purchase it, to get their quality "upgrade" right the first time.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/service...4221913/enhance

This what I got first try. I'm not a professional reviewer. I think I got my money's worth. You deserve the same. The person I know of who felt the same as you about his wood upgrade, got a nice replacement. It only a took two or three weeks. He showed photos of both stocks, on another site. Not trying to be argumentative but I think you are cutting off your nose to spite their face.

I appreciate your engagement.

PM me your email address. I'll send you a couple photos of what I received.

Thanks,
GG

Seriously?

Beretta will be making guns 100 years from now. CSMC, not so much.

For every one of these things CSMC sells, the Italian industry will sell 1,000 guns.

Good luck with your selection, but finding a happy customer of this marvelous CT savior of the sporting gun industry can be a challenge. At least at the clubs I frequent.

I would like to see the numbers you are using to determine that "Most Italian guns are overpriced", Niemann. There must be a lot of overpriced Italian guns that I am not aware of. Considering that Beretta, Zoli, Guerini, F (and I) Rizzini, Poli, Piotti, and many other makers, are all reasonably priced for what you get, and make up the bulk of the doubles sold out of Italy, you must be aware of a lot of sales by the higher end makers (Fabbri, Bosis, Famars, P & V, etc.) that I am not.

SRH

I too was interested in buying a new, American-made double. Specifically, a side by side. After field testing one of the new Savage Fox A Grades, I tried my best to buy one. Result: I was sent two guns, both of which had "two-tone" checkering on the stock. Half the panel visibly coarser than the other half. Since then, I've seen photos of other Savage Foxes with the same issue . . . and dealers apparently foolish enough not to send them back!

Maybe two-tone checkering is the new thing and I'm just not up on it. But after two tries, I gave up. If CSMC supplies stocks that looks like that, and if Savage doesn't catch such an obvious screwup . . . well then, I'll either stick with used doubles from American (and foreign) makers that had enough pride to take more care in what they made, and in what they sent out for sale. Or I'll buy new from foreign makers represented by American dealers who wouldn't think of offering crap like that for sale.

And it's too bad . . . because based on my experience with the field test gun I had from Savage (which didn't have messed up checkering), I was prepared to buy one. Prepared to say nice things about the gun in print. I'm not sure what's going on at CSMC and Savage, but if it's representative of the current state of the American firearms business, then I'm glad we don't go to war with guns made and offered for sale by these clowns.

So far, it would seem that CSMC is doing better with their Revelation OU.