doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com My thoughts on Lefevers

It would seem reasonably to assume that LAC placed the Belgian proof conspicuously on the barrels as evidence of quality, rather than an indicator of the absence thereof.

Nov. 30, 1895 Sporting Life
"How Shot Guns Are Made and the Process Through Which They Pass Fully Explained"
The beginning of the manufacture of a gun is the barrels, and it is generally known that no barrels are made in this country except the rolled (decarbonized) steel, which is used on the Winchester gun. All gun barrels are now imported, although an attempt was made a few years ago to produce them in this country, but with only partial success. England, Germany and Belgium supply most of the barrels, the latter country doubtless producing the larger quantity.
All gun barrels, whether imported direct from the makers in Belgium, or through an importer in this country to the gun manufacturer, are received in rough tubes, which very much resemble a couple of gas pipes, but being somewhat larger at one end than at the other. These barrels or �tubes� as they are called, are merely tied together in pairs, with small wire and 40 to 50 pairs are packed in a box.

Lefever with Crown over 'GL', likely George Laloux, but Gaspar Lejeune of For�t was a member of the Syndicat des Fabricants de Canons de Fusil de la Vesdre The stamp is somewhat indistinct related to the pre-joining finishing



Fluid steel Lefever with the mark of Charles Clement & Neumann Freres: two crossed hammers with the inscription "Hammered Fluid Steel" and the letters "CJCJ" in the angles of the hammers.

Daryl and Drew please email me the pictures as I'm at work and I cant see them on this computer.
lefeverarms@gmail.com

Bob, ok

So... are you saying they numbered the frames in batches, or the barrels in batches? Your original post is confusing as it seems to state both.

Personally I thought Bob's explanation on this was quite clear. He stated, in his opinion, the barrels were received in batches & SN'd when received. The frames were then numbered to the barrels when fit up. This meant to me the frames were not numbered when made which Bob explained was why all numbers are not consecutive by build date, but were numbered to the barrels as the frames were fit up to them. This makes more sense to me than any explanation I have heard as to the "Out of Sequence"numbers so common on Lefevers. Thanks Bob for the great research you have done on these guns.

For whatever it's worth I have a reprint of a Lefever catalog with price list dated Jan 1 1889. At the bottom of price list is the statement;
"Barrels imported by us are selected with greatest care, are tested and proved by makers, and bear Government proof marks". I do not have a Lefever with visible proof marks including my side pivot rod cocker from this era, but I know a number of them do exist. Perhaps most of these are on guns numbered close to this time frame.

This catalog shows a cocking rod gun with side pivot top lever. It also mentions the 3 position safety & the top lever being held over by a latch. I will have to look for certain, maybe tomorrow, but am quite certain my side pivot rod cocker has only a 2 position safety & as I recall the lever goes back to center as the gun is closed, being cammed open by the rib extension on closing. Grades listed are Optimus through F & will be built in 10, 12, 14, 16 or 20 at same cost or in 8 gauge for $10.00 additional. List prices were from $400.00 to $80.00. Prices were given for Double Express Rifles only in F grade @ $150.00 or Shot & Rifle combined @ $125.00. These prices included loading tools & bullet mold. Prices for higher grades were stated to advance in price same as double shotguns.

Prices for extra barrels were, depending on grade, from $40.00 to $170.00 on new guns or from $45.00 to $180.00 "to old guns of Our manufacture". It would thus appear at least at this point it did not cost much more to have another set of barrels fitted to an existing Lefever, than to have them fitted when originally built, thus explaining why many may well have considered having an extra set fitted at a later date. Also to be considered is a standard gun could be bought at a discount, rather than ordered direct with a saving which sometimes may have amounted to near half the price of the extra set of barres. It could then have been subsequently sent to the factory for the extra set at regular price which was only $5.00 to $10.00 more dollars according to grade then if ordered with gun from the factory at regular price, thus still a considerable saving by going this route.

The Banc D'Epreuves Des Armes a Feu De Liege (Proof House for Firearms of Liege) First Obligatory Proof Load for 12g breech plugged tubes intended for �Double-Barreled Breech-Loading Sporting Guns� was 21 grams = 324 grains = 11.8 Drams powder and 32 grams = 1.12 oz. shot

For comparison, British Provisional Proof (tube bored, ground, and with chamber cut and threaded for a plug) 1855-1925 for 2 1/2� and 2 5/8� 12 gauge shells for a service load of 3 1/4 Dram Eq. with 1 1/4 oz. shot was 9 3/4 dram �T.P.� (Tower Proof �R.F.G. 2�) No. 4 or No. 5 Black Powder with 1 1/4 oz. shot.
I don't have a reported pressure for that load, but definitive proof with 6 1/2 Drams and 1 2/3 oz. shot with "Proof House Powder" was about 11,500 psi.

Somewhere, someplace, I read about during the 1890's and first two decades of the 20th century, that imported gun barrels, if not finished up, were on the free list, or subject to greatly reduced tariffs, for American tariffs because there weren't any made in the United States.

Which would explain provisional proofs and maker's marks for Belgian barrels you see on so many old side by side shotguns, from many different makers.

Maybe somebody else, has that information. As I remember it, the tariffs for finished barrels were quite steep, and in an era when labor was cheap and steel was expensive, it made quite a difference in the cost of making a double gun.

When my Lefever I grade gets back from having the chokes opened, I'll report on the barrel markings and serial numbers on it.

Long version
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=17ixogftgITEblNUWtmFBv96ZvgjK6eFell8GsAWd-KI

Short version
The McKinley Tariff of 1890 set the average ad valorem tariff rate for imports into the United States at 48.4%. �Sporting, breech-loading double-barrel shotguns� had a 35% ad valorem PLUS an import duty of $1.50 if priced less than $6; $4 if $6-$12; and $6 if priced greater than $12. �Single-barrel breech-loading shot-guns� had the same 35% ad valorem PLUS an import duty of $1.
�Forged rough shotgun barrels� i.e. non-joined tubes, however, were exempt from the tariff which allowed the US makers to continue to import Damascus tubes from (mostly) Belgium to fit and finish here.

Drew, I notice the visible Belgian markings on the two thumb push guns are located where they would be covered up by the barrel flats if finished with the marks on the underside.

Dudly
They numbered the barrels as they came into the shop. The number put on the frame was the number on the barrels that they picked to use.