doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com My thoughts on Lefevers

Hello

I have been collecting Lefever serial numbers for 20+ years. I have close to 5000 guns recorded. The list over the years has told me a great deal about Lefevers and how they were numbered.

For many years we have known that most of the high grades are bunched together. Everyone thought that Lefever built a bunch of nice frames and set them aside to use for high grade guns as orders came in. most of he 8 gauge guns are in two groups so people felt the same way about them. The early run of 8 gauge guns are both thumb push opener and pivot openers.

As the serial number list grew bigger I could see that most all the guns were grouped together. Like you will see 30 or 40 lets say E grade 12 gauge Damascus guns in a group.

Then there are tons of guns that we call out of sequence guns. Like I have a G grade two piece cocker in the sidecocker serial number range and there are others that are out of sequence. There are Ithaca guns built in the 35xxx, 50xxx and other places they shouldn't be.

Ive known this for a number of years and told very few. I believe that Lefever numbered the barrels as they came in the shop. They numbered the frame by the number on the barrel. See with the 8 gauge guns the frames from a thumb push opener to a pivot opener are different and they would have not known that they were going to switch. As for the high grade guns it because they ordered top barrels like Whitworth. The out of sequence guns were guns that were built on a set of barrels that they had for a long time. Barrels with two sets of numbers on them were either guns that went back to the factory to get a second set of barrels or guns that were ordered with two sets of barrels. So the barrels with double numbers on it will have the number assigned to the barrels when they arrived in the shop and the second set of numbers will have the number of the other set of barrels and the number assigned to the gun. It also explains why Ithaca guns were built all over the serial number range. Because they had the barrels that were numbered.

I hope this doesn't rock the Lefever world to bad. I don't get on line a lot so if you have numbers or comments its best to email me at lefeverarms@gmail.com

Really good stuff. Thanks

What impact, if any, will this have on how we have been estimating the Year of manufacture?

Tamid
A lot. For years I've said the list everyone is using is not right. That's why you don't see that list on my website. I would say as many as 1/3 or the Lefever Syracuse model was built out of sequence by at least a year or two and some by 10 or more years.

I think that is very interesting and almost certainly exactly what happened. If they ordered barrels in lots it makes sense to make them up in advance and number them so a few did not walk away. They probably roughly struck them to make sure there were no hidden defects. Then assigned serial numbers based on matched weight and contour.

The mixing of old stock with new stock also explains why you see features on guns made later than the feature had fallen out of normal use. It could just have been in the normal production sequence but used a later numbered barrel stock first then a low number later. That would explain why you can see guns with different features in a out of order serial number sequence. It might not be that they were going back and forth in features so much as that their production instead they used old low barrel serial numbers on later new gun which means they also had used higher serial number on old style guns with.

Has anyone ever tried to figure out how many guns they could have produced a week? If the number is 50, 100, 150 then you could figure a fairly accurate yearly production. Did it fluctuate much over the years? Then based on pattern dates see when features were added to guns. I know they often used a new feature before they had it patented. Sometimes they seemed to decide it was not improvement and dropped it and moved onto another. One thing I always liked about LeFevers is that they ask as many questions as they answer.

KY Jon
When I age a Lefever, I look for patent dates first. Then look for the different features or things on the gun, like cocking hook, ejectors, type forend latch, pin arrangement, style of stock, ect to get the age of a Lefever. I've looked at enough of them that its not real hard to do anymore.

Bob, maybe your theory might help explain this early , approx. B Grade, thumb push. Note the Belgian proof on the outside of the barrel. Could it have been a serial number stamping error and they decided to use the barrels anyway with the Belgian stamp showing

Here's another Daryl, but I can't remember who sent me the image
Your barrels are 4 Iron "Oxford"

Possibly a C thumb push and I think 3 Iron



Banc D'Epreuves de Liege provisional proof

Drew, that's interesting. So maybe it was a common practice for a "moment in time". I'm not sure of the explanation, but two of the same era and model with the external proofs means something, but what?

Bob, you said that Lefever numbered the barrels as they came into the shop. Did you mean they numbered rough barrels before they were joined ? If so, do you have an idea of what state the rough barrels were in ? Were they bored to gauge dimensions ? Were the outsides finished in any way, or were the outsides struck down after joining ?

It would seem reasonably to assume that LAC placed the Belgian proof conspicuously on the barrels as evidence of quality, rather than an indicator of the absence thereof.

Nov. 30, 1895 Sporting Life
"How Shot Guns Are Made and the Process Through Which They Pass Fully Explained"
The beginning of the manufacture of a gun is the barrels, and it is generally known that no barrels are made in this country except the rolled (decarbonized) steel, which is used on the Winchester gun. All gun barrels are now imported, although an attempt was made a few years ago to produce them in this country, but with only partial success. England, Germany and Belgium supply most of the barrels, the latter country doubtless producing the larger quantity.
All gun barrels, whether imported direct from the makers in Belgium, or through an importer in this country to the gun manufacturer, are received in rough tubes, which very much resemble a couple of gas pipes, but being somewhat larger at one end than at the other. These barrels or �tubes� as they are called, are merely tied together in pairs, with small wire and 40 to 50 pairs are packed in a box.

Lefever with Crown over 'GL', likely George Laloux, but Gaspar Lejeune of For�t was a member of the Syndicat des Fabricants de Canons de Fusil de la Vesdre The stamp is somewhat indistinct related to the pre-joining finishing



Fluid steel Lefever with the mark of Charles Clement & Neumann Freres: two crossed hammers with the inscription "Hammered Fluid Steel" and the letters "CJCJ" in the angles of the hammers.

Daryl and Drew please email me the pictures as I'm at work and I cant see them on this computer.
lefeverarms@gmail.com

Bob, ok

So... are you saying they numbered the frames in batches, or the barrels in batches? Your original post is confusing as it seems to state both.

Personally I thought Bob's explanation on this was quite clear. He stated, in his opinion, the barrels were received in batches & SN'd when received. The frames were then numbered to the barrels when fit up. This meant to me the frames were not numbered when made which Bob explained was why all numbers are not consecutive by build date, but were numbered to the barrels as the frames were fit up to them. This makes more sense to me than any explanation I have heard as to the "Out of Sequence"numbers so common on Lefevers. Thanks Bob for the great research you have done on these guns.

For whatever it's worth I have a reprint of a Lefever catalog with price list dated Jan 1 1889. At the bottom of price list is the statement;
"Barrels imported by us are selected with greatest care, are tested and proved by makers, and bear Government proof marks". I do not have a Lefever with visible proof marks including my side pivot rod cocker from this era, but I know a number of them do exist. Perhaps most of these are on guns numbered close to this time frame.

This catalog shows a cocking rod gun with side pivot top lever. It also mentions the 3 position safety & the top lever being held over by a latch. I will have to look for certain, maybe tomorrow, but am quite certain my side pivot rod cocker has only a 2 position safety & as I recall the lever goes back to center as the gun is closed, being cammed open by the rib extension on closing. Grades listed are Optimus through F & will be built in 10, 12, 14, 16 or 20 at same cost or in 8 gauge for $10.00 additional. List prices were from $400.00 to $80.00. Prices were given for Double Express Rifles only in F grade @ $150.00 or Shot & Rifle combined @ $125.00. These prices included loading tools & bullet mold. Prices for higher grades were stated to advance in price same as double shotguns.

Prices for extra barrels were, depending on grade, from $40.00 to $170.00 on new guns or from $45.00 to $180.00 "to old guns of Our manufacture". It would thus appear at least at this point it did not cost much more to have another set of barrels fitted to an existing Lefever, than to have them fitted when originally built, thus explaining why many may well have considered having an extra set fitted at a later date. Also to be considered is a standard gun could be bought at a discount, rather than ordered direct with a saving which sometimes may have amounted to near half the price of the extra set of barres. It could then have been subsequently sent to the factory for the extra set at regular price which was only $5.00 to $10.00 more dollars according to grade then if ordered with gun from the factory at regular price, thus still a considerable saving by going this route.

The Banc D'Epreuves Des Armes a Feu De Liege (Proof House for Firearms of Liege) First Obligatory Proof Load for 12g breech plugged tubes intended for �Double-Barreled Breech-Loading Sporting Guns� was 21 grams = 324 grains = 11.8 Drams powder and 32 grams = 1.12 oz. shot

For comparison, British Provisional Proof (tube bored, ground, and with chamber cut and threaded for a plug) 1855-1925 for 2 1/2� and 2 5/8� 12 gauge shells for a service load of 3 1/4 Dram Eq. with 1 1/4 oz. shot was 9 3/4 dram �T.P.� (Tower Proof �R.F.G. 2�) No. 4 or No. 5 Black Powder with 1 1/4 oz. shot.
I don't have a reported pressure for that load, but definitive proof with 6 1/2 Drams and 1 2/3 oz. shot with "Proof House Powder" was about 11,500 psi.

Somewhere, someplace, I read about during the 1890's and first two decades of the 20th century, that imported gun barrels, if not finished up, were on the free list, or subject to greatly reduced tariffs, for American tariffs because there weren't any made in the United States.

Which would explain provisional proofs and maker's marks for Belgian barrels you see on so many old side by side shotguns, from many different makers.

Maybe somebody else, has that information. As I remember it, the tariffs for finished barrels were quite steep, and in an era when labor was cheap and steel was expensive, it made quite a difference in the cost of making a double gun.

When my Lefever I grade gets back from having the chokes opened, I'll report on the barrel markings and serial numbers on it.

Long version
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=17ixogftgITEblNUWtmFBv96ZvgjK6eFell8GsAWd-KI

Short version
The McKinley Tariff of 1890 set the average ad valorem tariff rate for imports into the United States at 48.4%. �Sporting, breech-loading double-barrel shotguns� had a 35% ad valorem PLUS an import duty of $1.50 if priced less than $6; $4 if $6-$12; and $6 if priced greater than $12. �Single-barrel breech-loading shot-guns� had the same 35% ad valorem PLUS an import duty of $1.
�Forged rough shotgun barrels� i.e. non-joined tubes, however, were exempt from the tariff which allowed the US makers to continue to import Damascus tubes from (mostly) Belgium to fit and finish here.

Drew, I notice the visible Belgian markings on the two thumb push guns are located where they would be covered up by the barrel flats if finished with the marks on the underside.

Dudly
They numbered the barrels as they came into the shop. The number put on the frame was the number on the barrels that they picked to use.

The Banc D'Epreuves de Liege provisional proof on the thumb push guns is the only I've seen where it would be visible.
All the other tube maker's (not proof) marks, on every U.S. maker's gun, are on the bottom of the barrels just forward of the flats.

'JDH' is an unknown maker's mark on Lefevers

1892 G grade



The others are 'ADH' - Arthur-Delvaux-Heuse & George Laloux (posted on p.2).
Lots of examples
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/18490292

I recall Russ Ruple saying he had had several Lefevers with proof marks, but don't believe he stated whether they were on top or not, just assumed they were underneath where at last the forend would have to be removed to see them.

I have several Lefevers with proof marks on the bottom of the barrels.

I was correct, my gun, SN 10,515, does have only the two position safety & the top lever does come back to center when the gun is fully opened, no hold over latch. The lower surface of the doll's head is cut on a radius which cams the lever over to the right as the barrels are closed. The extractor is not secured. The track in the bottom of the rib extension in which the extractors ride seems to be cut with a slight taper as it nears the outer limit which provides tension to prevent extractor falling out, but it can be grasped & pulled out against this tension with no tools needed. It has all of the compensating features of these early Lefevers. If there are any other details anyone would like, just ask & I will try my best to provide an answer.


PS; I will note my gun has the smooth concave rib as pictured in the gun drew showed with the proof marks. The rib marking reads Lefever Arms Co Makers Syracuse NY rather than patentees & reads in the opposite direction than Drew's example. The 1889 catalog states all guns unless otherwise ordered will be supplied with a matted rib. There are no proof nor barre;makers marks which I can find, either top or bottom. I have a two hook gun with a GL bbl makers mrk & some large hook guns with SBL&Co marks.

This discussion has been great in improving my understanding of serial number anomalies. It makes good sense that barrels were numbered when they came to the factory and that frames were numbered later to the barrels to which they were fitted. Thank you for this good discussion. On the proof mark question, I have had Damascus barreled Lefevers with no proof marks, Belgian proof marks
or hallmarks, and one with a Birmingham proof mark. On fluid steel barrels, once tubes less expensive than Whitworth and Krupp were introduced, I recall another proof mark of a Belgian maker or distributor of fluid steel tubes. I do not remember the specific letters or symbols.

neither my lefever Nitro Special or my lefever A grade carry any extra proof marks.....

although both are marked for choke constriction....

Ithaca... like you didn't already know...Geo

I'm talking Syracuse Lefevers not Nitro Specials.

do I detect an un-noble attitude....

you say that like it is an insult....

and yes I know the difference....but for some reason the attitude of most "Lefever" owners rubs me the wrong way.....they have some diluted opinion that the Lefever is the be all and end all in American doubles....more of a designer that couldn't make up his mind what he wanted to do.....

Call it what you may but LAC guns & Ithaca built Lefever Nitro Specials share nothing in common, but the name Lefever, they are totally different guns, built in a different time frame.
The discussion concerning Foreign Proof Marks & SN sequence's was concerning LAC guns which was made plain at the beginning of the thread. Nitro specials were not even being built when this was taking place.
All LAC built guns do share several common features, though there are indeed design changes over the years.
Some of the barrel makers mark are GL, I believe this one is on Damascus barreled guns. I have SB&CO marked barrels of both Damascus & Smokeless & there is as I recall LLC marke smokeless barrels, I believe this one is more often found on Ithaca assembled guns, though not certain.
It could also be said that Purdey's & Crescent's share some common features, they are both SxS doubles, many have two triggers & both are sidelock's. "WHAT IS THE BIG DIFFERENCE" between them. If you understand that you should well understand the difference between an LAC gun & a Nitro Special. They are simply not in the same category of either design or workmanship.

I don't think that is a fair assessment of LeFever. He was born 25 years too early. Starting at the end of muzzle loading wasted 20 years of his productive life in what became the double gun period. What you see as a constant changes are what I see as evolution in his design. His guns are trim, handle well, seem to last just about forever. I wish he made far more high grade ones because the engraving is as good as anything Remington made.

Cool your jets Gunut, I knew you were joking and just pointed it out.
Sorry if I offended...Geo

The SB&Co mark on Lefevers is likely Samuel Buckley & Co. rather than Sanderson Bros. & Co.

The �LLH� of Laurent Lochet-Habran has been found on Fox, Baker, Lefever, Crescent, Ithaca (Lewis & Flues with �Smokeless Powder Steel�), NID, Lefever Nitro Special, Lefever M-2 single barrel, and Westernfield Deluxe/Western Arms Long Range, Smith Royal, Armor, London, Crown and Nitro barrels and Hunter Arms Fulton and �Ranger� for Sears. Baker guns may be marked �Nitro Rolled Steel� and Folsom Crescent guns �Fluid Temper Steel�.

More here
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=17ixogftgITEblNUWtmFBv96ZvgjK6eFell8GsAWd-KI

Gunut
No I don't have a problem with Nitros but they are not Lefevers. They have nothing to do with Lefevers. Its a hardwear store gun that Ithaca built using the Lefever name. Not trying to be rude but its the truth.
If your not interested in what I've posted please don't read it or reply.