doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Best Bismuth and shot size(s)

I understand your reasoning that reducing the shot weight reduces resistance and therefore should reduce pressure and be safe.

That said you are considering one variable and while more likely than not correct for most powders it is not a lock for all loads that can be depended on.

I repeat that I did not find Armbrust stating you can safely interchange load data between lead and bismuth. I think in many cases it would turn out safe, but the variables of applying your course of action as a general rule is unsafe without taking into consideration all factors to include the gun it will be shot in.

I wish you well, but not everyone out there reading our posts have the knowledge and judgement where your course is safe or not.

Developing your own load is great, but before sharing it as valid and safe, it should be tested.

Lastly I repeat there is alot of tested bismuth data out there that can be used without going your way.

I can't quite see how different powders are going to greatly change the safety issue between Pb and Bi loads. What principles would create such differences?

I never claimed Armbrust said one could safely interchange load data. He didn't say you could not either. His motivation seems to be in developing very long range waterfowl loads using shot buffers, which isn't exactly my goal.

If there is a lot of bismuth data out there, I don't know where "out there" is. Certainly, there is more than I have found, but there seems to be dearth of information suggesting it is very different than lead shot loads - and that might well explain why Alliant seems to not bother much with listing Bismuth loads for instance.

I'm not going to suggest that anyone load anything in particular in their guns, but I was hoping to find answers to two questions so I could decide what to load in mine.

1. Who makes the better quality Bi shot? That question has still not been answered, even though there appears to be at least two substantially different types of Bi being produced.

2. Are there any general considerations for loading Bi that have been developed since the very early years? The answer to that seems to be no. Certainly, nothing jumps out at me in the portion of "out there" that I have surveyed so far. In fact, everything I see suggests just the opposite. There are no special needs for particularly faster or slower powders, bismuth-specific wads, or anything else that I can find..

So, now I have a load that I feel is not only safe, it is a far cry from pushing any envelopes as well. Whether it will kill pheasants or not, I will find out as soon as this ridiculous, cold weather lets up.

This is a tungsten matrix type shot, because he behaves like lead you use lead data.

http://www.ecotungsten.com/shots.html

Personally I don't really care weather people believe reloading Bi is a black art or not, it works for me!!

TM

The ecotungsten, aka Niceshot is never available. RotoMetals sells Bismuth, and at a real nice price. However, there's is cut with 6% tin. Most others have 2% i believe. I don't know what difference this would make at the pattern board, or in the field.

I was just pointing out that there are metals other than lead that load just like lead.

I buy my Bi from Rotometals, and have been happy with it so far.

TM

the price for Rotometals is far better that the price for Precision Reloading's offering. But Ballistic Products is slightly better yet, but their shot is somewhat unusual. I would like to hear what folks thing about it. Seems it is "textured" which allows them to make it at much reduced costs. Is it round? Does it fragment?

I emailed PR and BP asking about what their alloy might be. I don't know if they will tell me, but I thought I would ask.

I determined some time ago that stuffing bunch of plastic particles in payload is a rip off as it is cheaper than using more high antimony pellets with nickel coating like what quality shell makers in Europe use. I will not pay extra for being ripped off, sorry. This exactly analogous to buying same or less product in larger box or buying 20 or 25 round boxes of defensive ammo when same ammo in 50 round packs can be bought for very little more from SGAmmo (often labelled "For Law Enforcement Use Only".

"substituting Bi for Pb by volume (as MOST of us do with our reloaders),"

Quite the statement and assumption! Seriously dude.

"I can't quite see how different powders are going to greatly change the safety issue between Pb and Bi loads. What principles would create such differences?"

If you can't quite see the differences in powders.....well I'm glad I'll never be shooting beside you and your hand loads.

Best wishes and good luck.

You can't be too careful, Brent. I have a good friend who was given a C. Boswell damascus gun, with 2 1/2" chambers. He modified a 2 3/4" MEC to load the shorties, then proceeded to use Unique in compression formed hulls. I warned him about keeping the pressures low, and suggested other powders that would be better suited. He believed that there was "wiggle room" with the loading data, and proceeded to blow the chamber out of a fine doublegun, ruining it. He contends to this day that it was a stuck basewad.

Point is, powders make a huge difference. Heck, even switching primers can change pressures as much as 3000+ LUP. Sometimes it's hard to be patient, but it really is worth the wait to get data from Tom on an untested load. I'm not trying to be a smart-aleck, I just want to see you do well with the loads.

SRH

Okay dal, I don't quite know why you want to take this discussion into the gutter but you seem to be pushing it there.

Nowhere did I say that powders are not different. I said that a safe lead loading for any powder ought to be a safe Bi loading for that powder as well.

So, for all of that data that is "out there", some of you should be able to mine up an example of a published safe lead load that is clearly unsafe with Bismuth.

dal, I find it interesting that you imply that most reloaders weigh their shot charges instead of measuring by volume when loading smokeless loads. I'd be willing to wager a pretty penny that you are dead wrong.