doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Best Bismuth and shot size(s)

A friend and I have been shooting on some public places that require nontox shot. We have both been using Kent Bismuth loads in 12 and 20 gauge with somewhat spotty success. Neither of us are sure whether it is because the stuff is slow and we are behind the birds (the ones I have hit suggest that is the case) or if they are just not very lethal.

Recently, I was dressing some birds that had been shot with lead and Kent Bismuth #5s. The lead shot measured over 0.11", some close to 0.12" The Bismuth measured 0.10 or even less. This morning, I measured some old Winchester Bi #5s that I had in for reloading. They all measured over 0.120". So, apparently there is a lot of variation in what one interprets #5 shot to be. The Winchester stuff in my handloads does seem to kill better. But perhaps just because it is faster and closer to my practice ammo, so I center the birds better.

Well, regardless, I think we are going to reload some more Bi shells. I'll use the last of the Winchester shot I have, but I'll need more, at least for next year. Is any particular maker of Bi shot better than another? I'm not even sure who all is making it. I know Rotometals is, but are there others? I'm interested in quality as much or more than price and in getting a largish shot size (0.12" seems ideal to me, esp. since Bi will be a little bit less dense).

Are there any special considerations when reloading for Bi? I've always heard that it loads 1 for 1 with lead reloading data. Same powder, wads etc. I figure I'll whip up some of the old Blue Dot loads I used to kill everything that flies with, back before I got too lazy to reload.

Anyway, suggestions and recommendations on Bi reloads for 12s (and mayb 20s) are welcome.

Keep warm out there. Dang cold here.

Could it be that Kent loads with smaller English shot sizes? For some reason remember English shot being smaller than US...

Clearly, Kent is smaller than Winchester shot sizes, but not all of the non-Kent stuff is the same. Not sure why, and I didn't do an exhaustive sampling and a goodness of fit test but roughly, it appears there are different mean sizes to different brands and types of shot, and Kents are definitely on the small end of things from what I have seen so far. Some of the lead #5s were from Holiday loads that I got 40+ years ago. But even among new stuff, there is a variation. All the measurements above are relatively "modern" ammo, albeit, Winchester does not market Bi shot for reloaders anymore to the best of my knowledge.

Bismuth does not load as lead

There is specific data for it

YOU CANNOT SAFELY use lead data with Bismuth shot. You should only used tested Bismuth data. Concur 100% with OH

Reference Kent: I have had no issues with the current Kent #6 1oz Bismuth loads. They are just as effective as the lead loads. I shot most my birds under 25 yards.

I have not taken the time to disassemble and measure. I used to spend time digging into the details, but as of late I spend the time with my dogs as what counts for me is in the field which is the true arbiter of what works for me.

For load data see the Hodgdon reloading site

Okay, so my info is out of date or simply wrong.

I'm curious why it would be dangerous however. It is, afterall, less dense so pressures would be down.

In looking at the Hodgson website just as you posted this, it looks pretty similar to lead but it only lists longshot powder. I've got Blue and Red dot on hand, so I would like to use that and the wads that I already have if possible. I'll keep hunting.

Okay, looking at the Hodgson site, I find that using the same hull Win AA, same wad WinAA12R, same payload 1 3/8 oz, and same Win 209 primer, and same amount of Longshot powder (which I don't want to buy), the loads are darn near spot on identical for Bi vs lead. I don't see any functional difference.

Alliant's website lists loads for all the components I want to use, but not 1 3/8 oz loads. Only 1 1/4 and 1 1/2 oz loads but I can do those. Anyway, it does NOT distinguish between lead and Bi shot from what I'm seeing on their site.

Yes Alliant does distinguish non toxic data

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipeList.aspx?gauge=12&gtypeid=10&shotype=3

They also have some blue dot loads

While data for lead is similar,and you may not be too far out, I would never counsel someone to go outside published data without in depth knowledge and that includes a gun capable of handling a higher than normal pressure. I use old SXS Guns from before WWII so I am careful to not get carried away

old colonel, I appreciate the concern. I think we have pretty strong actions for the 12s. A Merkel (late 1980s vintage) and an O'Shatz that is nearly identical but older than the Merk.

I did look at the Blue Dot loads and they confirm the loading data that I already have for Blue Dot with lead.